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Old 04-07-2017, 01:29 PM   #76 (permalink)
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And look, I get it. LL is incompetent. We've seen them take great ideas and implement them in absurdly stupid ways countless times. You'll find no disagreement here on that count.

But LL being incompetent and doing stupid things doesn't mean there aren't solutions they should be aiming for. Smart things they should be doing. Most people say I'm too negative when it comes to my views on LL, so what makes you think I believe LL will do any of the things I suggest, in any form, let alone without finding some way to fuck it all up?

I think it's pretty clear that I'm only pointing out the things LL should be doing, not suggesting these are things they will do.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:51 PM   #77 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
Yes, let's be crystal clear here.

You're saying "Penny, your ideas are great, but they'd never work because LL will do something completely different."

Does anyone else see the problem with this logic?

"People should eat more fruits and vegetables!"
"No they shouldn't! If they did that they would just eat uncooked bacon instead and die of heart attacks. You'll see!"


I honestly don't think you've understood my suggestions if you believe this. Everything I've ever suggested would make SL easier, requiring less time and patience on the part of the average user.
Mkay, not what I said. I said that going by their track record, they'll fuck it up. Not quite the same thing.

I don't quite think you understand the average Second Life user. I understand your suggestions, Penny. The ones I was talking about at that moment had nothing at all to do with what could be implemented at a system level. Your suggestions on modding existing content? Yep, those. You have to have the time and patience for that. Altering textures? Sure, the average user should be able to resize a texture - provided it can be saved to disk first. Outside of that... What makes you think they're going to spend the time lookikg for a similar enough, full permission texture? How about searching the web for the same and then uploading it? Applying it?

That's just to start with.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:54 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
And look, I get it. LL is incompetent. We've seen them take great ideas and implement them in absurdly stupid ways countless times. You'll find no disagreement here on that count.

But LL being incompetent and doing stupid things doesn't mean there aren't solutions they should be aiming for. Smart things they should be doing. Most people say I'm too negative when it comes to my views on LL, so what makes you think I believe LL will do any of the things I suggest, in any form, let alone without finding some way to fuck it all up?

I think it's pretty clear that I'm only pointing out the things LL should be doing, not suggesting these are things they will do.
Except that's not how you often present them Penny.

In any event, apologies for the rough tone.
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Old 04-07-2017, 03:54 PM   #79 (permalink)
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The ones I was talking about at that moment had nothing at all to do with what could be implemented at a system level. Your suggestions on modding existing content? Yep, those.
Oh, those. You're referring to the same posts about optimizing avatars where I say things like;

"This really isn't something the average SL user should be worrying about."
and
"I still don't think optimizing an avatar is easy."
and
"I'm primarily trying to illustrate why avatars tend to have such high draw weight and show that if content creators, the people who make the stuff you're including in all of your outfits, were a bit more motivated to optimize their content, we could all have lower draw weight and higher framerates without having to optimize our avatars at all."

You know, where I've repeatedly stressed how I'm not sharing this information to suggest every SL user should be doing these things to their avatars, but to illustrate how, if content creators were optimizing their work before selling it to you, it would be super easy to throw together an avatar with a low draw weight without even thinking about it.

Where I've repeatedly pointed out that the only reason I'm sharing specifics on how to modify content to lower the draw weight is so that those who do have the modding skills and inclination can do so if they choose?

Why, yes, I can totally see how a reasonable person might read the above statements and come to the conclusion that I mean the exact opposite of what the words I'm posting are saying.*






*No I don't. That was sarcasm. I do not apologize for it.
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Old 04-07-2017, 05:12 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
Oh, those. You're referring to the same posts about optimizing avatars where I say things like;

"This really isn't something the average SL user should be worrying about."
and
"I still don't think optimizing an avatar is easy."
and
"I'm primarily trying to illustrate why avatars tend to have such high draw weight and show that if content creators, the people who make the stuff you're including in all of your outfits, were a bit more motivated to optimize their content, we could all have lower draw weight and higher framerates without having to optimize our avatars at all."

You know, where I've repeatedly stressed how I'm not sharing this information to suggest every SL user should be doing these things to their avatars, but to illustrate how, if content creators were optimizing their work before selling it to you, it would be super easy to throw together an avatar with a low draw weight without even thinking about it.

Where I've repeatedly pointed out that the only reason I'm sharing specifics on how to modify content to lower the draw weight is so that those who do have the modding skills and inclination can do so if they choose?

Why, yes, I can totally see how a reasonable person might read the above statements and come to the conclusion that I mean the exact opposite of what the words I'm posting are saying.*






*No I don't. That was sarcasm. I do not apologize for it.
Why yes, your posts carrying inconsistent disclaimers and often presented in a manner which suggests the doing such modifications are a trivial matter for you (also inconsistent, thankfully) or are not that big a deal

Work on your consistency and presentation.
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Old 04-07-2017, 09:43 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:48 PM   #82 (permalink)
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I've seen people leaving SL in droves as they come to feel like there's never anything to do in SL because the features that should be connecting them to content, communities and places are pretty much non-existent and the only way to find anything that interests you is word of mouth or pure blind luck.
The annoying thing about communities I've observed that the worse the staff running a place is, the more popular and lasting it seems to be for some reason, so of course all the places I actually want to go have the lifespan of a dayfly while the places I despise (and/or I'm actually banned from for dumb reasons) seem like they're going to live fucking forever and will never be replaced by something better.
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Old 04-08-2017, 08:30 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Why yes, your posts carrying inconsistent disclaimers and often presented in a manner which suggests the doing such modifications are a trivial matter for you (also inconsistent, thankfully) or are not that big a deal

Work on your consistency and presentation.
I think that Ms. Penny has been remarkably consistent on this to the point of being tedious and repetitive. I agree with most of what she is saying but disagree on some subtle points. I probably should not be the one to do this, but I really think she needs an FAQ to refer to whenever this comes up. If she had one it would go something like the following. (All answers are my personal interpretation of what Ms. Penny is saying and represent my personal opinion of course.)

* Why should the average user have to be an expert on digital design?

The average user should not have to be bothered with this. Good content should be made available by proficient builders.

* Why should the average content provider be an expert on digital design?

The average content provider does not have to be an expert. They should follow some basic practices that result in a better shared experience for everyone.

* Why should LL force people to do things according to what you think is best?

LL should not force people to do anything. They should make it easier, though, to create things that conform to standards which result in a better experience. They should also make it easier for people to find information to support their efforts. Having said that, if people want to sell things on the LL hosted marketplace then they should be open and honest about what they are selling.

* Are you saying that lower resolution textures and fewer details look better? What the hell are you smoking, Penny?

It will not look "better" in some circumstances. It will not make much of a difference in most circumstances and the trade off is not worth the degradation in the viewer's and network's performance.

* But Penny! My customers are very discerning and demand the most biggest textures and most finest details imaginable.

Fine, but what you do impacts others. You should consider communicating with your customers and offer them choices and alternatives.

* Dammit Penny, I just want to build stuff and not worry so much about all these technical details.

Me too, but this is not about you. It is about a few basic practices and ways to make it easier for us to just muck about and have some fun.

* Penny, you are a cow. I mean, you are literally a cow. Does that not imply that you a furry and your opinion means nothing?

Moo.

* *Sigh* Not THIS again? Why do you have to bore us with this over and over.

Because what you do impacts me. Unfortunately, this is a community, and we have to share SL. Also, nobody is forcing you to read this. Seriously, just move on and let me rant and get over yourself.


* My products are most precious, and I cannot let those savages change them. Why should I make them mod when those bastards will ruin it?

Those "bastards" are giving you their money in exchange for a little entertainment. If you let them change things in ways that make it a little more enjoyable for them then they will be happier with you.


* But Penny, those idiots will ruin my things, and then will expect me to fix it. What kind of drugs are you on, Penny???

Yeah, some of them will. That is what people in the real world call "customer service," and yes it sucks. Most people are better than that, but people ruin everything. If you do not want to deal with people then maybe selling things to anonymous people on the Internet is not your best option.

* Maybe so, but my things are wonderful as they are. I cannot imagine those savages ruining my pretty things.

Then put your things in a museum behind glass. If you do not want people to touch your things then do not let others have them.
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Old 04-08-2017, 08:47 AM   #84 (permalink)
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* Penny, you are a cow. I mean, you are literally a cow. Does that not imply that you a furry and your opinion means nothing?

Moo.
As far as I'm concerned, you win the internet for this week. Ms. Grandma.
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Old 04-08-2017, 04:14 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Firestorm (and probably the LL viewer) has a thing that lets you float your render weight over your head. You gather a bunch of demos, try them on, and delete any that go over 3 or 4K. Then you decide what to buy from what's left. It's that easy.

None of my outfits have been over 30K for the last three years.
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Old 04-09-2017, 09:38 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Hm... I haven't worn any outfit under 70k for quite a long while now (and yes, I do rather go for high and "realistic" details than for low complexity)
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Old 04-11-2017, 11:46 AM   #87 (permalink)
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I probably should not be the one to do this, but I really think she needs an FAQ to refer to whenever this comes up.
I am so stealing this.
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Old 04-13-2017, 07:28 AM   #88 (permalink)
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And I did!
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Old 04-13-2017, 09:41 AM   #89 (permalink)
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My only quibble with the FAQ is the last answer doesn't include one of your more common refrains. So, here's one more for the end:


* But what's wrong with scaling things to 8' tall avatars? As long as the scale is consistent, what's the difference?

An 8' tall avatar is 1/3 taller than a 6' avatar. Don't forget that when talking about land, everything is squared. That 1/3 linear difference when squared scales out to a 6' avatar having almost twice as much space on a 512 plot as an 8' avatar would. Instead of just a house, you can have a house, an outbuilding, a garden, and a boat dock. Given the price of land in SL, using a 6' avatar puts money in your pocket.
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Old 04-14-2017, 01:26 AM   #90 (permalink)
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On that I can only say this: I'm not saying any of this to have a debate over it. We've all watched as creators left Second Life over a new feature or restriction (the few that have been put into place) so you csnnot tell me that the abive is not absolutely true.
Not true at all. The creators that are still in SL are doing amazing work with better tools and providing higher quality work. There is no vacuum of creativity in SL today that needs to filled. None.

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You have the time, patience, skill and such to fuck around and reduce your own complexity? Have the dispossble funds to trssh chunks of your invrntory and buy new things? Oh how lovely for you! If you're part of that latter group, save that disposable income and do what some of us fucking can't: Upgrade your hardware somehow.
That could only possibly be an issue if you choose to make it so. I, and I know of many others, have managed to add to our inventories with "new things" without spending a real life dime. I have chosen to not spend real life money in SL for over two years now, yet I have managed to move both my clothing choices and my inworld decorations to mesh.

I don't know Penny and have never met Penny, half the time I don't understand what she is even talking about. All I know is she walks the walk when she talks the talk. When she makes a claim about the LL viewpoint being wrong and eating up space, she backed it up by proving it, and then offered a solution. As said before, she does not demand (or even expect I think) for LL to fix the issue, she just offers up a proven solution that you can take, or leave. It is a solution that I share with any new resident I run into.

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Old 04-14-2017, 02:42 AM   #91 (permalink)
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My only quibble with the FAQ is the last answer doesn't include one of your more common refrains. So, here's one more for the end:


* But what's wrong with scaling things to 8' tall avatars? As long as the scale is consistent, what's the difference?

An 8' tall avatar is 1/3 taller than a 6' avatar. Don't forget that when talking about land, everything is squared. That 1/3 linear difference when squared scales out to a 6' avatar having almost twice as much space on a 512 plot as an 8' avatar would. Instead of just a house, you can have a house, an outbuilding, a garden, and a boat dock. Given the price of land in SL, using a 6' avatar puts money in your pocket.
Plus the extra height throws everything else out scale, and it's why SL artictecture rarely ever has any sort of photorealism. It's all very obviously game-looking because it's oversized.
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Old 04-14-2017, 08:28 AM   #92 (permalink)
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So, here's one more for the end:
I added two more!

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Plus the extra height throws everything else out scale, and it's why SL artictecture rarely ever has any sort of photorealism. It's all very obviously game-looking because it's oversized.
This was a big (no pun intended) issue when LL was trying to implement VR into SL. Even with your typical 8' tall avatar, windows were too high to see out of, door knobs were at face height. Nothing looked right. Around that time I actually got a lot of people sending me messages to compliment my builds on being "VR ready".

Of course, LL eventually had to drop their VR ambitions for SL. I heard it was because they couldn't get framerates high enough to make it feasible.

That's a shame. *sips tea like a muppet*
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Old 04-15-2017, 03:56 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Old 04-16-2017, 04:47 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Of course, LL eventually had to drop their VR ambitions for SL. I heard it was because they couldn't get framerates high enough to make it feasible.

That's a shame. *sips tea like a muppet*
Comfortable VR needs a garunteed 90 fps, with any lag spikes being no less than 70 fps. Dropping any less than 70 fps, even if it's for a just a fraction of a second, will make you feel sick.

Oculus screens all software submissions to make sure they met their quality standards before allowing them to be listed on Oculus Home. By default, Oculus headsets will only run content licenced by Oculus in this way. (Though you can flip a checkbox to run third party content and make it an open platform, it's not the default setting and comes with a big scary disclaimer about health risks from experiencing unvetted VR content.)

I think Linden knew they'd never pass.

They could have gone with Vive headset instead, since Steam has no quality filter for game submissions, but something tells me they didn't want SL listed on Steam.
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Old 04-16-2017, 11:22 PM   #95 (permalink)
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but something tells me they didn't want SL listed on Steam.
Is there a story to this? Because I remember a few years back when LL was happy to announce SL was coming to Steam. They released Patterns on Steam (fuck you, by the way, LL), but then SL on steam never happened.
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Old 04-17-2017, 11:25 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Most probably it'd get downrated to oblivion. Even aside from performance issues, steam peeps want games, SL doesn't really fit there.
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Old 04-17-2017, 06:53 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Most probably it'd get downrated to oblivion. Even aside from performance issues, steam peeps want games, SL doesn't really fit there.
Downrated, sure. I can see that. I'm not sure it would hurt them, though. On the other hand, I'm not sure being on Steam would help them. But they did announce it, so I still wonder what changed their minds.

As for Steam users only wanting games, Steam started adding non-game software ages ago. Before LL even announced an SL for Steam release.
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Old 04-19-2017, 12:09 AM   #98 (permalink)
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Old 04-19-2017, 02:56 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Is there a story to this? Because I remember a few years back when LL was happy to announce SL was coming to Steam. They released Patterns on Steam (fuck you, by the way, LL), but then SL on steam never happened.



I don't know their reasoning, but regardless, Linden Lab chose not to become a laughing stock on steam by being displayed with the (actually quite rare) worst rating possible, "Overwelmingly Negative"

Normally Steam reviews require you buy the game, but when it comes to F2P games (which is what SL would have been filed under), anyone is free to write a review.

Plus it would have only served as a constant neon sign for trolls and greifers to sign up.

I don't know if LL knew this, but they dodged a bullet.
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Old 04-19-2017, 03:32 AM   #100 (permalink)
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I always assumed the Steam plans went on the back burner when rodvik randomly picked up Desura.
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