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Old 04-05-2017, 09:01 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Orin's willy has broken SL!

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Old 04-05-2017, 09:10 AM   #52 (permalink)
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I finally saw a jelly doll, it was a TWI wolf with a flexi alpha "mane" down the back.

My reaction was to google how to disable the feature.
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:14 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Right click on any jelly avi (more>Render>fully) and you can render them fully instantly. You then don't need to adjust your settings. Is that a firestorm only feature?
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Old 04-05-2017, 12:47 PM   #54 (permalink)
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In the V3 style viewers you can also set presets for different situations that includes your jelly doll preference. I have my standard 20k cap complexity and set one to see everything. Mostly though I just look at profiles because they load quicker and give me a far better idea of what someone's like.

In Singularity, if you use the debug setting to hide avis over a certain complexity, you just see the names, which doesn't interrupt a nice view like jellies do.
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Old 04-05-2017, 01:06 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Right click on any jelly avi (more>Render>fully) and you can render them fully instantly. You then don't need to adjust your settings.
Since I don't ever want to see jellies, I'm better off just disabling it once and for all.

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Is that a firestorm only feature?
Don't know, if so then shame on LL.
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Old 04-05-2017, 01:50 PM   #56 (permalink)
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I blame my willy for higher ARC. I usually take it off for normal use, but as soon as it goes on, even if hidden, my weight jumps up about 40,000.

I've recently been normalising between 80k and 100k. It's usually jewellery, bracelets and other accessories that take me up to between 120 and 180. If i go over 200 it's because i'm using old hair and have all my jewellery and my willy on!
Ah, I think I understand why males outnumber females in higher complexity.....
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Old 04-05-2017, 11:37 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Yes and no. By all means, if choices I'm making in SL are really badly adversely affecting other users - due to actually doing something wrong - then I will make every effort to indeed be informed and make changes. However, if I am using the system exactly as it was designed, and wearing perfectly acceptable items I have purchased over the years, which are only now being seen as having high draw weight by certain viewers, then sorry, but I don't agree.


Here's something I don't get: Five years ago, before mesh became a thing, and everyone was running what we now consider to be ancient computers, or older, we all wore our torus-filled hair and our multi-prim jewelry and flexi-prim clothing, and everything seemed to work just fine. What changed?
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Old 04-06-2017, 12:10 AM   #58 (permalink)
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What changed?
End user awareness and a limited toolset with which one can control some aspects of what your viewer is rendering.
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Old 04-06-2017, 12:20 AM   #59 (permalink)
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Here's something I don't get: Five years ago, before mesh became a thing, and everyone was running what we now consider to be ancient computers, or older, we all wore our torus-filled hair and our multi-prim jewelry and flexi-prim clothing, and everything seemed to work just fine. What changed?
Second Life has always famously needed a more powerful computer to run well at max settings compared to the average, significantly prettier, game of the era. Now with mesh and materials people just have more options to drag things down with.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:06 AM   #60 (permalink)
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This is where you get problems with having non-professional content creators. Not all content creators have the experience or knowledge to perhaps create stuff at the most optimum quality or performance. Not that I'm knocking amateur content creators by any means. They make up a big part of the content in SL and that's how they learn to improve their skills.

But with the recently increased user exposure to the draw weight issue, it's now just yet another thing that we are supposed to be aware of when shopping, or just generally going through your wardrobe for old stuff. So not only do we need to be on the lookout for ripped content, stolen content, badly made content with unnecessarily large texture sizes that will bring the grid crashing down, we now have another thing to look out for in draw weight - which, from my understanding, is not something that can be checked prior to making a purchase of anything new.

If I were to take any of this too seriously, I may as well just tip my entire inventory into the trash. There are quite possibly some 'dodgy' items in there, that I will have been given years ago and never even bothered to look at (and without reading this forum wouldn't even know were ripped or not 100% legit). There are very likely plenty of items with inefficient textures (ditto about not even knowing about this without having read threads here). And clearly there are thousands of items with high draw weights (ditto ditto ditto).

I love this forum with the whole of my being and am so grateful for everything I have learned over the years. I have learned how to to try to be more efficient with my own builds wherever possible. But just sometimes, I kinda wish I hadn't read so much because now I have to deal with the guilt of knowing that I could be doing things differently to improve my user efficiency but don't have the time or inclination to do so. Sometimes it would be nice to go back to being one of those blissfully ignorant Joe Average users who have no idea about the internal workings of SL and just happily frolic through their virtual experience without the guilt. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and there are times when I feel that my SL experience has become a minefield of things to look out for and worry about, rather than the carefree bit of fun it's supposed to be.



(I know I'm being a whiney little bitch and no, I don't really wish I was back to blissfully ignorant frolicking, but y'all know what I mean. And yes, I also know that I could just like, not read stuff here)
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:30 AM   #61 (permalink)
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I have trouble getting my draw weight Over 40,000. Being a fashion plain jane has its merits.
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:56 AM   #62 (permalink)
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing and there are times when I feel that my SL experience has become a minefield of things to look out for and worry about, rather than the carefree bit of fun it's supposed to be.
There you go... wear your willy with pride!!
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Old 04-06-2017, 06:59 AM   #63 (permalink)
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Here's something I don't get: Five years ago, before mesh became a thing, and everyone was running what we now consider to be ancient computers, or older, we all wore our torus-filled hair and our multi-prim jewelry and flexi-prim clothing, and everything seemed to work just fine. What changed?
It didn't, always. It depended on your computer.

For example... at one point zooming in on a flexiprim would reliably crash my video card. I fixed that (and got a significant performance boost) by upgrading my card. My original Mac mini peaked at about 2-3 seconds per frame if there were more than a couple of avatars in view.
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Old 04-06-2017, 07:04 AM   #64 (permalink)
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There you go... wear your willy with pride!!

/me puts on her huge mane of massive alpha clashing hair, straps on the biggest e-willy she can find and proudly marches out as the greenest gooiest jellydoll on the grid!

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Old 04-06-2017, 11:06 AM   #65 (permalink)
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I blame my willy for higher ARC. I usually take it off for normal use, but as soon as it goes on, even if hidden, my weight jumps up about 40,000.

I've recently been normalising between 80k and 100k. It's usually jewellery, bracelets and other accessories that take me up to between 120 and 180. If i go over 200 it's because i'm using old hair and have all my jewellery and my willy on!

Amateur! I've got some really lovely ankle chains that way in around 100K each >.<

I've been hitting around 40-60k without trying. I can't say the same about my catboi alt who was averaging 130K but after swapping to the new Lara body and the v-tech chest last night (and all the headaches that causes) he's at 93k with 23k of that from the cat ears and tail. No idea how impactful his willy is atm but at least not getting the message about "your tonic hud uses a lot of texture...."
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Old 04-06-2017, 03:09 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Here's something I don't get: Five years ago, before mesh became a thing, and everyone was running what we now consider to be ancient computers, or older, we all wore our torus-filled hair and our multi-prim jewelry and flexi-prim clothing, and everything seemed to work just fine. What changed?
The render pipeline was changed at some point to push bump maps into the same processing chain used by materials. I remember this because it made my X2 4000 with the Nvidia 6200 completely obsolete and I had to put the Nvidia 9500 in to get back to the same performance I'd had earlier. Didn't need to change cpus for that at least. The 9500 was buttery smooth in most situations for about 4 months, then they made another change and it dropped off to single digits too so I put an Nvidia 250 in and that was good for several years.

Later they made another change and that cpu did become obsolete and I went to an i5-2500k on that same gpu. Then about two years later either the OS or SL made another change and that gpu became useless, so I got the Nvidia 750 and that is still useful in SL.

That 250 and X2 4000 are still powerful enough to run the software, albeit at short draw ranges, but the software's just not there as the devs of the OS don't consider it worth supporting properly anymore.


My experience with SL or any other game . . yes I called it a game, is that you want to find out what the devs are aiming for and go there to the extent that you're able.
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Old 04-07-2017, 03:49 AM   #67 (permalink)
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My experience with SL or any other game . . yes I called it a game, is that you want to find out what the devs are aiming for and go there to the extent that you're able.
Except in other games the ones making the content put high priority on optimization. For SL the rule is basically spend as much money as possibly on your computer and hope for the best.
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Old 04-07-2017, 07:03 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Except in other games the ones making the content put high priority on optimization. For SL the rule is basically spend as much money as possibly on your computer and hope for the best.
Other games employ - key word there - professional designers to make static - another key - content.

Second Life is - and was - designed so that pretty much anyone can create content - a wholly different beast.

To go a bit further: If Linden Lab had done as some have suggested regarding limits/what to tie them to... Well it sure as hell wouldn't be friendly to the average user and that's at best. At worst you'd have an environment where those same professionals who are normally paid far more for their work are now the only ones who might even bother.

On that I can only say this: I'm not saying any of this to have a debate over it. We've all watched as creators left Second Life over a new feature or restriction (the few that have been put into place) so you csnnot tell me that the abive is not absolutely true.

As far as the whole Jelly Dolls and draw weight/complexity thing is concerned... Fuck any place/person that tries to police it. Also, fuck the people that came up with the challenge mentioned earlier.

You have the time, patience, skill and such to fuck around and reduce your own complexity? Have the dispossble funds to trssh chunks of your invrntory and buy new things? Oh how lovely for you! If you're part of that latter group, save that disposable income and do what some of us fucking can't: Upgrade your hardware somehow.
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Old 04-07-2017, 08:06 AM   #69 (permalink)
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If Linden Lab had done as some have suggested regarding limits/what to tie them to... Well it sure as hell wouldn't be friendly to the average user and that's at best. At worst you'd have an environment where those same professionals who are normally paid far more for their work are now the only ones who might even bother.
The above is absolutely not true. I'll explain why.

No one is calling for LL to come down harshly on content creators and weed out all but professionally optimized content. What is being suggested is that LL use friendly, forgiving guides that curb the worst optimization issues regarding SL content. One which is easily understood by both content creators and casual SL users.

They already do this to an extent with Prim Limits and Land Impact. It's an easy to understand system: Land has a pool of X points, each item you rez costs a certain number of points. Content creators understand that if their content costs an excessive number of those points then it will not sell well.

All LL needed to do to make this system effective was
  1. Include texture use in the LI calculations
  2. Apply a similar pool system to avatars

Bam. Done. SL arrives on tablets and VR next year because the worst optimization problems are solved and everyone is enjoying higher framerates.

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We've all watched as creators left Second Life over a new feature or restriction (the few that have been put into place) so you csnnot tell me that the abive is not absolutely true.
Have we, though? Here's what I've seen:

I've seen content creators leave in frustration as LL fails to fix bugs and performance issues that have plagued SL for years. Like the low framerates problem.

I've seen people leave SL as LL introduces new features that seem to make no sense and are not well communicated to their users. Like Jelly Dolls. The average users has no idea what causes high draw weight, is given no ability to see what attachments carry the high draw weight penalties, and are provided no tools to make educated purchasing decisions regarding draw weight when they go shopping.

I've seen people leaving SL in droves as they come to feel like there's never anything to do in SL because the features that should be connecting them to content, communities and places are pretty much non-existent and the only way to find anything that interests you is word of mouth or pure blind luck.

And when you do find a place that might interest you, there typically is nothing to do there because it's probably empty and there's no features content creators can use to make an environment that isn't just a diorama to wander around in. When LL does try to fix this we end up with Pathfinding and Experience Tools. Pathfinding is only useful with NPCs, a feature that does not exist yet. Experience Tools are limited in silly ways and tied to both land and premium accounts meaning very few people can even access them. In both cases, LL has utterly failed to provide example content people can play with, take apart and use as inspiration for using these tools in their own environments.

That is what I've seen.
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Old 04-07-2017, 09:36 AM   #70 (permalink)
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Other games employ - key word there - professional designers to make static - another key - content.

Second Life is - and was - designed so that pretty much anyone can create content - a wholly different beast.
Yes, we know this, it was my point entirely and should have been obvious. There are no traditional devs "aiming for" anything other than people making whatever they want however they can manage.

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If Linden Lab had done as some have suggested regarding limits/what to tie them to... Well it sure as hell wouldn't be friendly to the average user and that's at best.
False. Penny already said it quite well. People understand LI and prim limits just fine, along with attachment point limits and parcel boundries. It is no different.

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We've all watched as creators left Second Life over a new feature or restriction (the few that have been put into place) so you csnnot tell me that the abive is not absolutely true.
I don't know anyone who has left due to new features, but I've known several people who came back to Second Life with renewed enthusiasm because of them.

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Also, fuck the people that came up with the challenge mentioned earlier.
Yeah! Shame on people for trying to see how good they can look while being easier to render! Screw the average person for making the effort, right? How terrible!
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Old 04-07-2017, 10:38 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Oh for fuck sake.... That's nice Penny.

Now tell someone that gives a flying fuck what you have to say.

After all, you can always be counted on to pretend your views - if implemented - would worknout exactly asnyou envisioned.

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Old 04-07-2017, 11:26 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Today's mobile devices are amazingly capable. Lumiya is a remarkable proof-of-concept that demonstrates that SL is at least renderable on even several year old phones, let alone modern tablets.

I think LL should pay them whatever they ask to release the code.
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Old 04-07-2017, 12:39 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Oh for fuck sake.... That's nice Penny.

Now tell someone that gives a flying fuck what you have to say.

After all, you can always be counted on to pretend your views - if implemented - would worknout exactly asnyou envisioned.
I don't have to pretend. I've demonstrated everything I've ever claimed in-world to show that it works exactly as I say it does. I've been doing that for years and inviting everyone to come see.

How about you? Have you ever provided any evidence to back up anything you say? Or are you just wasting everyone's time with every post you make?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
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Old 04-07-2017, 01:06 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I don't have to pretend. I've demonstrated everything I've ever claimed in-world to show that it works exactly as I say it does. I've been doing that for years and inviting everyone to come see.

How about you? Have you ever provided any evidence to back up anything you say? Or are you just wasting everyone's time with every post you make?

That's a rhetorical question, by the way.
No Penny, you've demonstrated how YOU do it. You've demonstrated how you WISH Linden Lab had done it. You've demonstrated how it MIGHT be done in a perfect world.

We don't live in a perfect world.

Linden Lab has half-assed features, tools, limits and such for quite a long time - and that includes some of their more heavy handed shit.

You can show off your avatar and land until the day Second Life shuts down and it will nit change reality one iota.

Every single time someone dares to disagree with your suggestions, dares to remind you what the reality is... You get defensive and fall back on your projects.

They're nice, yes.

Your ideas? Great, if implemented the way you envision them. Even better if people react the way you believe they will.

The reality however? Half-assed, potentially detrimental implementation ending up pissing off users is what you'd end up with. That's just with only a few of them implemented and the best case scenario.

Just so we're clear here: My problem with your argument and examples is the same as it has always been. You have an idealistic view where it comes to implementing your ideas (it shows in how you present them), in how people will react to them. You absolutely fail to take Linden Lab's track record into account on the former while failing to account for the average user/creator's mindset on the latter.

This does not even touch on the fact that the average user simply does not want to/does not have the time, patience, will, etc to do half the shit you seem to think they should/will.

Now, perhaps Linden Lab will not only implement your ideas one day but perhaps they will surprise everyone and actually do it right. I'm not holding my breath but you're more than welcome to.

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Old 04-07-2017, 01:23 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Just so we're clear here:
Yes, let's be crystal clear here.

You're saying "Penny, your ideas are great, but they'd never work because LL will do something completely different."

Does anyone else see the problem with this logic?

"People should eat more fruits and vegetables!"
"No they shouldn't! If they did that they would just eat uncooked bacon instead and die of heart attacks. You'll see!"

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This does not even touch on the fact that the average user simply does not want to/does not have the time, patience, will, etc to do half the shit you seem to think they should/will.
I honestly don't think you've understood my suggestions if you believe this. Everything I've ever suggested would make SL easier, requiring less time and patience on the part of the average user.
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