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Old 04-02-2017, 04:13 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tris View Post


This is exactly the one thing i really don't understand about how drawing weight works. There is no consistency (for me at least) just how it is calculated.
I allways thought it has something to do what kind of alpha is used or how many prims are in the object (with older non-mesh stuff), but, no

As an example, my old glasses i used for years have a drawing weight of 95342!!! They were buildt with 86 prims.
Some other glasses, same creator, have a drawing weight of 5724. And these use 243 prims!
Both use the same alpha and the one with higher DW even has no scripts in it anymore (because of modable).

So, i don't know why that is, it seems pretty random at times at least to me
I wouldn't say this proves there's no consistency, but rather the method used to calculate draw weight is not exactly what you thought it was.

There's a number of things that affect draw weight.
  • Number of prims.
  • Type of prims. (Ex: A torus costs more than a box)
  • I believe even how the prims are tortured can affect draw weight.
  • Number of textures.
  • Size of textures.
  • Texture alpha channel and whether it's rendered in Blended, Masked or None mode.
  • Complexity of the mesh used.
  • Size of the mesh used.
  • LoD of the mesh used.
  • Materials used. (Number, size, etcetera)
  • Shiny, glow, etcetera.

All these things, and possibly more, affect the draw weight of an object.
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Old 04-02-2017, 04:36 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Speaking of the 80k challenge, I keep tweaking my fantasy look. Recently I was able to remove more mesh bits by retexturing my arm with armour that matches my leg, thanks to a mesh body with separate surfaces for the left and right arms (why do so few mesh bodies do this?)

I also added more complicated mesh hooved feet, as in they're full feet rather than just hooves poking out from under the leg wraps, and replaced my old animateds mesh tail, which used the "frame animation" method of multiple models and a transparency swap script, with a bento tail with an actual animation.



Altogether, these changes dropped my draw weight down to:

33,171



Editing to add an image illustrating my Draw Weight Adventure, from where I was when I began trying to reduce my draw weight, to where I am currently.


Last edited by Penny Patton; 04-02-2017 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 04-02-2017, 05:14 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bcBrian View Post
I have one set that worked just fine with only a cutoff value of 1 - another that would show some white streaks if set that low, set at 32 (just random guess) that works fine.

When I changed to alpha masking it did cut off just over half the render weight. That's too much of a drop to skip that step. People need a script for it though - they most likely won't spend an hour manually changing that for 200 links. One SLPPF function call will do it immediately.
Sounds easy will make one tonight!
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Old 04-03-2017, 02:17 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Code:
// Drag into any object to change all alpha blended textures to alpha masking,
// using the cutoff value below. The script will delete itself afterward.

integer Cutoff = 127;

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
        llSetLinkPrimitiveParams(LINK_SET,
	[PRIM_ALPHA_MODE, ALL_SIDES, PRIM_ALPHA_MODE_MASK, Cutoff]);
        llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName());
    }
}
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Old 04-03-2017, 02:47 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Code:
// Drag into any object to change all alpha blended textures to alpha masking,
// using the cutoff value below. The script will delete itself afterward.

integer Cutoff = 127;

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
        llSetLinkPrimitiveParams(LINK_SET,
    [PRIM_ALPHA_MODE, ALL_SIDES, PRIM_ALPHA_MODE_MASK, Cutoff]);
        llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName());
    }
}
Dropping in the root prim?
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Old 04-03-2017, 02:58 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Speaking of the 80k challenge, I keep tweaking my fantasy look.



Altogether, these changes dropped my draw weight down to:

33,171
Do you mind sharing what you bought and use "as is"? I doubt that I make any DIY.
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Old 04-03-2017, 10:20 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ailsa Muliaina View Post
I had glasses I wore all the time but they were too complex so I'll need to find a replacement for those sometime.
Glasses are tough, but at least the current trend is away from the "including the kitchen sink" scripting of the old days.

Yummy has some very low weight ones at C88, if you hurry.
Lately, I've been wearing Chiba's "Johnny Glasses" which are about 2.3K.

https://marketplace.secondlife.com/p...-DEMO/10030715
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Old 04-03-2017, 11:52 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Adeon Writer View Post
Code:
// Drag into any object to change all alpha blended textures to alpha masking,
// using the cutoff value below. The script will delete itself afterward.

integer Cutoff = 127;

default
{
    state_entry()
    {
        llSetLinkPrimitiveParams(LINK_SET,
    [PRIM_ALPHA_MODE, ALL_SIDES, PRIM_ALPHA_MODE_MASK, Cutoff]);
        llRemoveInventory(llGetScriptName());
    }
}
This is great for you and I, and it is exactly how I did this -
after creating this script directly from inside the contents of the hair while in edit mode. Of course you have to detach the hair to see the changes, and to get rid of the never ending busy cursor icon because the script window you have open is showing you something that doesn't exist anymore and the viewer gets confused a little bit.

But not for a script someone creates ahead of time for dropping into the hair unless they know to reset it after dropping it in, since it is inside state entry instead of an on rez event.

ETA: Or add a reset inside on_rez
And you can see the change in numbers immediately if you have the More Info link pop up open at the time the script runs, but nowhere else until reattached.

Last edited by bcBrian; 04-03-2017 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 04-03-2017, 03:42 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I only examine my draw weight if I get a little message that it's over 100 K. Even then, I don't necessarily do anything about it, unless it's something obvious like a really old piece of jewelry I could substitute with something else. I keep my setting to render everyone on, unless I go to an event, where I slide it down.

I do not attend events that police draw or script weight. A few years ago I had that teleport bug happen with a script detector and it destroyed the scripts of my AO. I had to buy a new one (went with a different company) and copy all my animations that I wanted to keep over to it. It was a huge pain. If someone messages me about my draw weight, I will explain how to adjust their settings if they are nice, or if they are rude, I would tell them to F off. The latter has not happened, thankfully.

I feel this setting was created so people can make their own choices about what they do or don't want to see, or what their computer can handle. At first I hated the idea, but now I like it. Although it encourages lighter weight content (a good thing), it should actually deter policing of others, since we can all now control our own experience. So I don't understand why people would set draw weight rules for attending an event. See what you want to see and mind your own business about what everybody else is doing.
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Old 04-03-2017, 04:23 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ayesha Lytton View Post
I only examine my draw weight if I get a little message that it's over 100 K. Even then, I don't necessarily do anything about it, unless it's something obvious like a really old piece of jewelry I could substitute with something else. I keep my setting to render everyone on, unless I go to an event, where I slide it down.

I do not attend events that police draw or script weight. A few years ago I had that teleport bug happen with a script detector and it destroyed the scripts of my AO. I had to buy a new one (went with a different company) and copy all my animations that I wanted to keep over to it. It was a huge pain. If someone messages me about my draw weight, I will explain how to adjust their settings if they are nice, or if they are rude, I would tell them to F off. The latter has not happened, thankfully.

I feel this setting was created so people can make their own choices about what they do or don't want to see, or what their computer can handle. At first I hated the idea, but now I like it. Although it encourages lighter weight content (a good thing), it should actually deter policing of others, since we can all now control our own experience. So I don't understand why people would set draw weight rules for attending an event. See what you want to see and mind your own business about what everybody else is doing.
This.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:22 PM   #36 (permalink)
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places who police draw weight are dumb. I just take effort to keep mine low because when everyone in a community does it, large crowds don't suck. it's nice when SL runs smothly in a large group, because it's rare.
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Old 04-03-2017, 05:27 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by bcBrian View Post
This is great for you and I, and it is exactly how I did this -
after creating this script directly from inside the contents of the hair while in edit mode. Of course you have to detach the hair to see the changes, and to get rid of the never ending busy cursor icon because the script window you have open is showing you something that doesn't exist anymore and the viewer gets confused a little bit.

But not for a script someone creates ahead of time for dropping into the hair unless they know to reset it after dropping it in, since it is inside state entry instead of an on rez event.

ETA: Or add a reset inside on_rez
And you can see the change in numbers immediately if you have the More Info link pop up open at the time the script runs, but nowhere else until reattached.
state_entry actualy fires when you drop the script in the object, weither drug from inventory or compiled. scripts can't run in avatar inventory and are stateless. they're just uncompiled source.
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Old 04-03-2017, 06:42 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Adeon Writer View Post
state_entry actualy fires when you drop the script in the object, weither drug from inventory or compiled. scripts can't run in avatar inventory and are stateless. they're just uncompiled source.
I never knew that, but then I've never written a script from inventory that only did things in state entry. I've always written those straight from object contents.
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Old 04-04-2017, 12:09 AM   #39 (permalink)
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I noticed awhile back that my old mesh hair ranged from about 30,000 to 90,000 or so by itself. I recently replaced most of it with newer hair that's about 3,000 to 6,000 and looks better too.

I seem to average around 30-60,000 or so these days. At least when not using RLV stuff. That rarely comes in under 90,000 all together and some items reach 300,000 by themselves.

Still, I don't travel much like that so it rarely matters.

Last edited by Gabriell Anatra; 04-04-2017 at 12:10 AM. Reason: trim redundancy
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:04 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Do you mind sharing what you bought and use "as is"? I doubt that I make any DIY.
Let's see...

The heavy glove on my right arm is from Deco.
My hair is from Wasabi Pills, all I did was change the blended alpha to masked.
The waist straps are from dark Prophet Designs.
The Chest strap and chains are a single piece from Forge.
The tiara is from Letlutka.

Out of all those, the glove is the only thing I haven't modified at all, but the others are modified in very minor ways, like adding custom materials.

Actually, most of the modifications I've done involve retexturing and didn't really affect my draw weight (excpet in those cases where I used smaller textures). The only item I did substantial modifications to was the body itself. I removed the clothing/tattoo layers, as well as bits of the lower leg that would be hidden under the leg wraps.

Most of the low draw weight just came from simply shopping for the lowest draw weight items I could find. I found a sword that was half the draw weight of my old one, so I switched. I found a shield that was a quarter the draw weight of my old one, so I swapped it out. My flexi-prim loin cloth had a higher draw weight than the mesh one. And so on.
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Old 04-04-2017, 03:14 AM   #41 (permalink)
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And I agree completely that policing draw weight has, with the introduction of Jelly Dolls, become nonsensical. I think it's great to encourage people to reduce their draw weight by putting helpful information out there, and aiding those who ask for help, but if someone wants to wear an avatar with a draw weight over 300,000 they can and it won't affect me other than making them a brightly coloured pixel blob on my screen that I can derender. It's not a perfect solution, but if you harass people about their draw weight it's just going to make them defensive.

Last edited by Penny Patton; 04-04-2017 at 03:22 AM.
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Old 04-04-2017, 04:00 AM   #42 (permalink)
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hm. just a thought experiment:
if you wear one attachment that pushes your draw weight through the roof, could you be naked otherwise and noone would care since noone could see it?
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:56 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penny Patton View Post
And I agree completely that policing draw weight has, with the introduction of Jelly Dolls, become nonsensical. I think it's great to encourage people to reduce their draw weight by putting helpful information out there, and aiding those who ask for help, but if someone wants to wear an avatar with a draw weight over 300,000 they can and it won't affect me other than making them a brightly coloured pixel blob on my screen that I can derender. It's not a perfect solution, but if you harass people about their draw weight it's just going to make them defensive.
Thanks for that Penny. I really do try not to be an inconsiderate ass of a user, but at the end of the day, my SL time is limited so I'm not going to spend a load of it in trying to figure out which bit of my outfit is possibly causing my draw weight to go up. I'm still on Singularity (although that may eventually have to change if they don't properly update to Bento, but that's another issue) and I'm blissfully ignorant of any draw weight issues, either for myself or anyone else. I see me just fine, and I see everyone just fine - never once seen a jelly doll. And really, that's all that matters to me.

Yet I have a couple of folks who come into the club and who regularly make a huge deal about that fact that I'm a jelly doll to them and how high my draw weight is and blah blah blah. And then kinda look at me expectantly as though waiting for me to do something about it. And with the deepest (not really) respect - fuck that noise.

It is very much the same as the analogy someone else posted about back in the early mesh days of folks pointing and go 'duh! your avi looks all funny! why it look all funny??'.

It's not my problem if you can't see my awesome gorgeousness. Yes - I'm fucking complex so deal with it.

To misquote the song:

"My mama once told me don't worry about your draw weight,
Cuz boys like a little more complexity to hold at night.
You know I won't be no low-impact, I'll stick with my jelly doll,
And if you can't see me right then you best go and move along'.





ETA: I also bought one of these awesome wobbly green jelly avatars from the Marketplace, just to mess with their heads

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Old 04-04-2017, 08:05 PM   #44 (permalink)
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my SL time is limited so I'm not going to spend a load of it in trying to figure out which bit of my outfit is possibly causing my draw weight to go up.
I agree about the ridiculousness of policing and with this too, but that's why I said a script was needed for hair with a lot of links. You only have to look in edit at the more info link to know what is high complexity. And a script will change this for hair immediately, as long as it is mod.

Without adult content, I can be under 100,000 if only hair is changed. With adult content, under 200,000 is still not hard for most people.
I haven't examined a lot of jewelry, but I'll throw this out there - an old Tech collar with old, heavy OC v3.x scripts can be almost 40,000 complexity while shown, 50,000 while hidden.
A modern, mesh OC v6, with half the script load can be less than 9,000 complexity hidden, maybe half that while shown.
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Old 04-04-2017, 08:37 PM   #45 (permalink)
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I'll add this to my thoughts on Draw Weight and Jelly Dolls; This really isn't an issue most residents should need to even think about.

What LL should have done is cap avatar draw weight in the same way they use Land Impact to reduce the rendering cost of environments.* They should have done this back in 2002 before SL first opened to the public, but they had multiple opportunities to do it without breaking legacy content by tying it to new features like mesh, materials and Bento.

Then no one would be complaining about draw weights. Sure, you'd have people insisting the draw weight caps should be higher, but avatars would look at least as good as they do now because content creators would be encouraged to optimize their work. A higher draw weight would mean fewer sales, just as a high Land Impact cost means lower sales.

Problem solved. We all enjoy higher framerates and worry-free shopping with no jelly dolls in sight.







*Granted, Land Impact really needed to take texture use into account, just as any draw weight cap would, too, to be completely effective.
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Old 04-05-2017, 02:24 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Thanks for that Penny. I really do try not to be an inconsiderate ass of a user, but at the end of the day, my SL time is limited so I'm not going to spend a load of it in trying to figure out which bit of my outfit is possibly causing my draw weight to go up. I'm still on Singularity (although that may eventually have to change if they don't properly update to Bento, but that's another issue) and I'm blissfully ignorant of any draw weight issues, either for myself or anyone else. I see me just fine, and I see everyone just fine - never once seen a jelly doll. And really, that's all that matters to me.

Yet I have a couple of folks who come into the club and who regularly make a huge deal about that fact that I'm a jelly doll to them and how high my draw weight is and blah blah blah. And then kinda look at me expectantly as though waiting for me to do something about it. And with the deepest (not really) respect - fuck that noise.

It is very much the same as the analogy someone else posted about back in the early mesh days of folks pointing and go 'duh! your avi looks all funny! why it look all funny??'.

It's not my problem if you can't see my awesome gorgeousness. Yes - I'm fucking complex so deal with it.

To misquote the song:

"My mama once told me don't worry about your draw weight,
Cuz boys like a little more complexity to hold at night.
You know I won't be no low-impact, I'll stick with my jelly doll,
And if you can't see me right then you best go and move along'.





ETA: I also bought one of these awesome wobbly green jelly avatars from the Marketplace, just to mess with their heads

I guess I may be one of the people who have complained I can't see you. The trouble is that you wear a lot of torus-based stuff which pushes the complexity way high - but for those of us not blessed with the newest computer, and especially those on Macs... it really does impact frame rates. Which leaves people like me with a choice of jelly dolls or a stuttering frame rate which makes everything look peculiar.

It isn't my choice whether people are very complex or very simple, but a lot of the people I encounter with high complexity are unaware that they can update to mesh hair and halve their complexity or ditch a prim-built necklace with large textures and quarter it. Often the things which push an avatar into Jellyfication are not that big a deal for them.

In SL everything has to be a balance. Having built complex environments for games, I have to rein in my desire to make everything as beautiful as I want by using a million textures and try to balance the immersive environment with the experience of lag or slow loading. Generally you have to be aware of the impact that your choices are making on the people who will be using your experience, in order to make informed choices. The same is true for avatar weight.

Those who are using top-end machines, with great graphics memory and RAM will not be having the same experience as those of us on older machines with less graphics memory. The Jelly dolls setting does enable those of us with less than optimum equipment to continue to be able to move and talk in areas with a lot of complex avatars, but it does hurt the immersion factor - seeing lots of silhouetted avatars is oddly disturbing. But when the choice is between being able to tolerate an environment or not, I don't have a choice. I'd rather be able to see everyone, though.
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Old 04-05-2017, 03:43 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bcBrian View Post
I agree about the ridiculousness of policing and with this too, but that's why I said a script was needed for hair with a lot of links. You only have to look in edit at the more info link to know what is high complexity. And a script will change this for hair immediately, as long as it is mod.

Without adult content, I can be under 100,000 if only hair is changed. With adult content, under 200,000 is still not hard for most people.
I haven't examined a lot of jewelry, but I'll throw this out there - an old Tech collar with old, heavy OC v3.x scripts can be almost 40,000 complexity while shown, 50,000 while hidden.
A modern, mesh OC v6, with half the script load can be less than 9,000 complexity hidden, maybe half that while shown.
The script Adeon posted looks very useful and I will definitely keep it to hand to throw into hairs especially, when I get a chance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliandris View Post
I guess I may be one of the people who have complained I can't see you. The trouble is that you wear a lot of torus-based stuff which pushes the complexity way high - but for those of us not blessed with the newest computer, and especially those on Macs... it really does impact frame rates. Which leaves people like me with a choice of jelly dolls or a stuttering frame rate which makes everything look peculiar.

It isn't my choice whether people are very complex or very simple, but a lot of the people I encounter with high complexity are unaware that they can update to mesh hair and halve their complexity or ditch a prim-built necklace with large textures and quarter it. Often the things which push an avatar into Jellyfication are not that big a deal for them.

In SL everything has to be a balance. Having built complex environments for games, I have to rein in my desire to make everything as beautiful as I want by using a million textures and try to balance the immersive environment with the experience of lag or slow loading. Generally you have to be aware of the impact that your choices are making on the people who will be using your experience, in order to make informed choices. The same is true for avatar weight.

Those who are using top-end machines, with great graphics memory and RAM will not be having the same experience as those of us on older machines with less graphics memory. The Jelly dolls setting does enable those of us with less than optimum equipment to continue to be able to move and talk in areas with a lot of complex avatars, but it does hurt the immersion factor - seeing lots of silhouetted avatars is oddly disturbing. But when the choice is between being able to tolerate an environment or not, I don't have a choice. I'd rather be able to see everyone, though.
I do appreciate that not everyone is on high end PC's, having been one of those people myself for a long time. But again, and genuinely this time, with respect to those folks, now that I have managed to scrimp together enough to have a decent high end machine that I can run on ultra graphics for the first time, that's exactly what I'm going to do.

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Generally you have to be aware of the impact that your choices are making on the people who will be using your experience, in order to make informed choices. The same is true for avatar weight.
Yes and no. By all means, if choices I'm making in SL are really badly adversely affecting other users - due to actually doing something wrong - then I will make every effort to indeed be informed and make changes. However, if I am using the system exactly as it was designed, and wearing perfectly acceptable items I have purchased over the years, which are only now being seen as having high draw weight by certain viewers, then sorry, but I don't agree.

As has been pointed out previously, not everyone has the time or inclination or knowledge to tit about for ages checking every item of clothing, jewelry or whatever, possibly going back years and years, to try to streamline their draw weight. I agree that in an ideal world, we would all be doing this. But in an ideal world, we would all also all be tech geniuses with limitless free time. (Now of course I'm not saying that one has to be a tech genius to deal with the issue, as it seems that there are pretty simple methods for handling it, both on the wearer's side, and also on the side of the person looking.) But I have to keep reiterating, at the risk of sounding like an inconsiderate ass, that I simply do not have the time to do this myself. My precious bit of SL time is already not nearly enough for all the things I have to do. Having to go through every single outfit to de-clutter draw weight would eat into that limited time by an unacceptable amount.

As long as my choices are not affecting others to the point that they cannot actually use the platform, then it's not my responsibility to downgrade what I do in order that those on lower end machines can see me. It's not my responsibility to ensure everyone's immersive experience is optimum by adjusting my useage. Nobody did that for me when I was on a low end PC and couldn't see mesh. Nobody gives a shit that I still want to keep using Singularity and therefore I can't see bento. I don't keep complaining about folks at the club with floating eyeballs and no heads coz that's not their problem. They see themselves fine, as does everyone else using a bento viewer. Because that's my choice and my problem. If I want to fix the issue, I can switch viewers. Otherwise I can just shut up and deal with it. Likewise, those that can't see me because of draw weight issues have the option to blur me out or increase their sliders. Your choice and I won't get offended about either. I will totally understand if you have to keep me jelly dolled because of your system limitations. What I don't appreciate is being constantly harangued about my draw weight and made to feel like it's my problem to deal with.

I'm really sorry to have gone off on a rant about this but it's early and my coffee hasn't kicked in yet. On the one or two occasions that someone has mentioned that they can't see me since the draw weight settings have come into force, I have smiled diplomatically and ignored it and not made any comments coz I know it's all fairly new (as far as actually visible changes to the average user) and it will take a while to settle and for folks to get to grips with it. Those folks have then adjusted their settings accordingly and that's the end of it.

(I also know from reading comments on this forum that to the best of my understanding, I'm not actually doing anything wrong that I should feel bad about, and that I'm not the one and only person in this situation.)

But when there are those one or two people who regularly make comments and point the finger and behave as though it is my responsibility to fix their viewer issues, then I start to get a little cranky and my levels of tact and diplomacy are stretched to their limits.
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:24 AM   #48 (permalink)
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I was amused by the 80k challenge since it's not particularly difficult to have an amazing avatar under that draw weight. Everyone in the group I acciociate with keeps it under 80k with minimal effort. The real challenge, unfortunately, is for the average user keeping VRAM usage down to a reasonable level (since most creators in SL are retarded). It's easy if things are mod, but that's another rant those here have seen before.

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Originally Posted by Anouk View Post
which are only now being seen as having high draw weight by certain viewers, then sorry, but I don't agree.
It's been in viewers for many years, just not as obvious as it has recently become. Were reasonable limitations and easily visible resource use per item in place from the start, nobody would be making a fuss. Better late than never I suppose, but it leads to people getting upset because they are only just now being made aware that their items, which have always been a problem, are actually a problem.

I do agree that nobody should be IMing strangers about their draw weight, just leave people alone. My main gripe is that even if somebody is jellied, the stupid amount of textures people have on them still get downloaded.
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Old 04-05-2017, 06:25 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Also, jellybabies turned this guy into Lenin, it even made him red:

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Old 04-05-2017, 08:29 AM   #50 (permalink)
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I blame my willy for higher ARC. I usually take it off for normal use, but as soon as it goes on, even if hidden, my weight jumps up about 40,000.

I've recently been normalising between 80k and 100k. It's usually jewellery, bracelets and other accessories that take me up to between 120 and 180. If i go over 200 it's because i'm using old hair and have all my jewellery and my willy on!
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