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Old 03-29-2016, 12:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Q Customs Kejwla Anwyl Permanbanned

Hello SLU Community, I found some special threads here at the forum and it looks like i'm not alone with my problem … My account Kejwla Anwyl is now banned since around 4 weeks and I have no idea what I can do … I've tried several times to get in touch with the IP team or Support Team. But unfortunately this does not work


Here a short overview. That was the email I send to the BBB Team:






Ladies and gentlemen of BBB, i am writing to you because another creator that had the same problem contacted you as well.


Hello. My name is Kejwla Anwyl and I have a problem with the company Linden Labs, San Francisco.
Here some background information:


The company Linden Labs has a virtual world "Second Life". I have been a resident in this world for six years under the account Kejwla Anwyl. In the last three years I have been a creator and seller of motorcycles and boats that I have created.


Linden Labs also has a Marketplace website where residents can sell their products. I have been selling there for the last three years as well in order to reach a broader market. At first I had absolutely no problems. After about a year, suddenly Linden Labs and their IP-Team removed a couple of items out of my marketplace store with the short comment that the item did not comply with the marketplace rules. Since the item listing was removed, there was no way for me to go back and check what I possibly did wrong. I published my listings as I thought was correct, orientating myself with other creator's listings since the cited rules are very ambiguous and broadly written. I did not intent fully go against any IP. After that, I heard nothing more. Suddenly in 2015, again, several items were removed from my listings for the same standardized reason. My account in Second Life was blocked for 7 days.


During that time I wrote two emails to the IP-Team of Linden Lab asking for assistance and detailed statements of the problems. I never received an answer. After my account was reinstated, I painstakingly went through my entire listings to rework them to ensure I was definitely not doing anything wrong (that I was aware of). I even had others go through my listings with a fine tooth comb to ensure everything was ok. After that, I heard nothing for months. Then suddenly the IP-Team once again deleted a boat that I had listed with the once again standardized reason. I was totally perplex. This was a totally reworked boat. I never relisted said boat again. Again several items were deleted by the IP team - this time with no comment or reaction on their side.
Last week, 23rd Feb 2016, I suddenly could not log in to my account at all. I called their support for assistance. Their only response was that my account was "on hold" and no other information would be given. But, Support ensured me that I would receive an email within a couple of days. I, to this day, have yet to receive an email from them. On February 26, I wrote directly to the IP Team of Linden Lab and asked for help and explanation. I received an answer from them on the same day.
In the said email to them, I apologized to the IP-Team for any mistakes I may have unknowingly made. I offered the IP Team that I would delete my whole marketplace store in order to build it from scratch. I asked them to give me this chance.


I never did receive any help or explanation from the team what exactly I did wrong. I am sure that all of the creators that use Marketplace list their items to the best of their knowledge and belief since we have no clear guidance or explanation. I am sure that I have made mistakes and have overlooked something, but as soon as a mistake was noticed, I did everything to rectify it. Sadly, Linden Lab Support, specifically here pertaining to the Marketplace, is very poor. Linden Lab receives 5 % of my Marketplace sales and also received the fee to upload anything I have created on to their server. i pay also for my premium account and every month around 1000 dollar just for land tiers.
Linden Lab advertises with the fact that WE are the owners of the objects WE create, IP and "physically" (as far as that is possible in a virtual world.) For one week now I have not been able to log in to my account Kejwla Anwyl. All of the objects I created in over 30,000 hours of work, that I created myself are GONE. Including $3000 of "real life money" that I have sitting in my inworld account. I have no possibility of getting to or saving my own creations, nor pulling my money out.
I can not log in to clear my store. My full listings are still there. And sales are still being made - with now 100% going to their pockets.
It seems to be a major problem going on at the moment. Several other creators are being banned the same way. No definite explanations nor possibilities of correction. Just locked out with absolutely no support or further information.


My store in Second Life has become a main factor in my real life. It is my income. My family and I depend on it. I cannot understand how Linden Lab can basically just cancel all of this with a standardized three line email.
I am certain I did make mistakes on Marketplace. I am sure I did not do everything perfectly, but as always where humans are involved, mistakes are made. All I ask is for a more specific explanation of my mistakes and assistance so that I would not make them again. Transparency. And true customer support. The same customer support my customers within Linden Lab's Second Life world have received from me.


I do hope that you are able to help me get my account back in Second Life and that everything turns in a positive direction. I will, if I get back in, remove my whole Marketplace listing and start from scratch as far as my listings go and will try my darnedest to never be in conflict with them again.


Maybe they overlooked the fact that there are several items that I still have in my listings are inactive meaning they are not being sold. They are left in the list so that I can actually go through and correct any mistakes I may have made. As I said, I removed the items from the sales, but they are still in the database. They are only visible to me (and Linden Labs).




My contact information:
Account Name in Second Life: Kejwla Anwyl




I mean, it's a big difference if someone does something intentionally to enrich themselves, or if someone does something because he did not know better. I would have stopped any error immediately I had known exactly where the problem was.


It looks like they go with a search engine over the database, they look for real life items, like “Motorcycle Phantom Bobber” when they found something “associated” the system sends an automated message out to the Marketplace User ..like “ Honda Phantom Bobber “ but I had never used the word Honda, yes Honda has at the real life a Phantom Bobber but that's a totally different Motorcycle, and had nothing to do with my motorcycle on the Marketplace. But they say I have used the Name Honda … I feel totally helpless !


Certainly I made mistakes, but you can not accuse me that I did not try to get it right. Several times I have sent an email to the IP team to give me an enlightenment. But i got never an answer.
I had never in my live a problem in-game, i was never rude to people or had problems with griefing, copybotting or other shit ..


It can not be, the LL after all these years, cancels my account, with a 2-line standard mail ?


LL did not just kill my account, they kill also my real life, my business and income, my friends here in second life ...They purge really everything and I feel like a criminal... Looks like they give a shit who is behind this Avis … Sorry my brain hurts and I feel really sick when I look back on my old Crossing Sands Estate and all the years of work … 2 fullregions are already gone, 21 regions are still there, I die with my Estate and work.


Regards,
Kejwla Anwyl
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:43 PM   #2 (permalink)
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This was the answer from LL to the BBB Team....

Linden Lab operates Second Life, a 3D "virtual world," or online, immersive communications system, which enables users to meet, communicate, view graphics together, and engage in a variety of user-generated game-play. Most content on the Second Life platform is user-generated and operated.
Linden Lab also operates the Second Life Marketplace (the "Marketplace"), which enables Second Life users to sell user-generated virtual items. In order to participate as a merchant in the Marketplace, users are required to accept and abide by the Second Life Marketplace Listing Guidelines, available at https://marketplace.secondlife.com/l...ing-guidelines (the "Guidelines").
Pursuant to the Guidelines, branded items that contain or use a brand name or logo, among other limitations, may be listed or sold only by the brand or intellectual property owner or its authorized agents. Despite numerous notices of non-compliance, Kejwla Anwyl continued to re-list branded items for sale on the Marketplace in violation of our Guidelines. More specifically, Kejwla Anwyl was issued notices on the following dates:
First notice - August 12, 2012
Second notice - December 10, 2012
Third notice - May 13, 2015
Fourth notice - October 14, 2015
Fifth notice/account termination - February 22, 2016
Due to the repetitive nature of this behavior, we are unable to allow this individual to continue using our Second Life service. Accordingly, this account will not be reinstated.
Respectfully,
Tommy Linden
Customer Support Manager
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Old 03-29-2016, 01:51 PM   #3 (permalink)
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IIRC, Phantom Bobber is TM'd as a stand alone, in addition to Honda.

I could be wrong and looking it up might be beneficial to you.

That said....how often did you use names like that? I don't know anything about the marketplace but you sorta allude to knowing why these temp bans took place you just didn't know what product (because forbid LL actually tell you which one).

Not sticking up for them at all but it does sorta seem like you knew what you were doing but thought it wouldn't be a concern? (the Phantom Bobber thing. Side note: SpeedKing might also be TM'd, but not positive if the guy makes the choppers with that name anymore or if it's just his store name now)
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Nice of them to keep your money too. Who's stealing from whom???
I wish you had never put your stuff on MP. From now on I will never buy anything on MP that I can find inworld.
The MP also makes it seem that everyone knows after 5 nondescript warnings a ban follows. There were three years between the first two and the last three, which would make anyone think that you had satisfied their requirements (whatever they are).
I have rarely seen a company that holds it's paying customers in such contempt.
LL may provide the land, but it's creators like you that make SL what it is, not them.
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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...not surprising, all a part of the last death rattles of SL before it sinks below the waves for good.
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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The Purge continues... Is LL trying to right all the wrongs they had let go for so long? now they are going after ip and copyright?

why not delist the item or temp ban the marketstore...banning an entire account seems harsh
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Last edited by Kalel; 03-29-2016 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 03-29-2016, 02:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KejwlaAnwyl View Post
Pursuant to the Guidelines, branded items that contain or use a brand name or logo, among other limitations, may be listed or sold only by the brand or intellectual property owner or its authorized agents. Despite numerous notices of non-compliance, Kejwla Anwyl continued to re-list branded items for sale on the Marketplace in violation of our Guidelines. More specifically, Kejwla Anwyl was issued notices on the following dates:[/SIZE][/FONT]
First notice - August 12, 2012
Second notice - December 10, 2012
Third notice - May 13, 2015
Fourth notice - October 14, 2015
Fifth notice/account termination - February 22, 2016
Due to the repetitive nature of this behavior, we are unable to allow this individual to continue using our Second Life service. Accordingly, this account will not be reinstated.
I'm confused. They claim you violated someone else's IP rights and warned you 5 times before permabanning. Were their notices ambiguously worded?
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kalel View Post
The Purge continues... Is LL trying to right all the wrongs they had let go for so long? now they are going after ip and copyright?

why not delist the item or temp ban the marketstore...banning an entire account seems harsh
I think it was what must have appeared to LL as the repetitive nature of the alleged misconduct -- 5 separate incidents since 2012, all separated by several months at least -- that caused the permaban.

From their point of view, it must have seemed they'd tried delisting the items and temporarily suspending the OP's account but this hadn't had the desired effect.

I don't mean to prejudge the OP's conduct, since I don't know what happened, but I think if I had something delisted and found myself temporarily suspended for allegedly infringing someone else's trademark, in future I'd take a good deal of care about what I called my products, and how I described them, to avoid similar misunderstandings.
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:35 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
I think it was what must have appeared to LL as the repetitive nature of the alleged misconduct -- 5 separate incidents since 2012, all separated by several months at least -- that caused the permaban.

From their point of view, it must have seemed they'd tried delisting the items and temporarily suspending the OP's account but this hadn't had the desired effect.

I don't mean to prejudge the OP's conduct, since I don't know what happened, but I think if I had something delisted and found myself temporarily suspended for allegedly infringing someone else's trademark, in future I'd take a good deal of care about what I called my products, and how I described them, to avoid similar misunderstandings.
However, the point the OP is making, which is an extension of all the points in all the threads thus far is that they're vague in what's causing the problem. She claims she doesn't know what, specifically was the issue- she even had other people look over her listings and didn't see an issue.

This would be stopped dead in its tracks if the email she got in the first place was something like this:

"Your item (item listing name here) has been removed from MP due to IP violations. In specific (blahdebloo) is a registered trademark of (whosyface) and cannot be used either on the product or in its description."

But that's not the email she got. When they remove the listing you can't even refer to it to see what the hell caused the issue.

While sometimes this should be painfully obvious (like coca cola, for example), in other cases it can be a lot more obscure, especially for people in other countries who may not have any idea that (blahdebloo) is a registered trademark in the US.

Once again, all this shit goes away if LL decides to communicate in a more specific manner.
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:36 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I'm looking up reviews of Q's Customs bikes and they have things like actual brands and logos on them: Harley name and logo on bikes, Cherokee on SUVs, etc. Not even sort of similar but verbatim. OP is stretching the truth at best.
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:39 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerise View Post
I'm looking up reviews of Q's Customs bikes and they have things like actual brands and logos on them: Harley name and logo on bikes, Cherokee on SUVs, etc. Not even sort of similar but verbatim. OP is stretching the truth at best.

Another reason for LL to be specific- then there would be no way to stretch the truth at all.
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:46 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerise View Post
I'm looking up reviews of Q's Customs bikes and they have things like actual brands and logos on them: Harley name and logo on bikes, Cherokee on SUVs, etc. Not even sort of similar but verbatim. OP is stretching the truth at best.
Even if the OP wasn't American, those brand names are pretty ubiquitous. I agree that in many cases, LL has been frustratingly vague and non-responsive, but after the first 3 or 4 warnings, I think I would have double checked my products and thought carefully about the brand names I was using. This part is the clue:

Quote:
branded items that contain or use a brand name or logo
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Old 03-29-2016, 03:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Using copyrighted/trademarked brand names and logos in SL is not allowed. Period. It was that way prior to 2012 and has not changed.

If falls on the creator to do the research to make sure they are not using someone else's copyright or trademark BEFORE they create their product. You snooze, you lose.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:00 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KejwlaAnwyl View Post

It looks like they go with a search engine over the database, they look for real life items, like “Motorcycle Phantom Bobber” when they found something “associated” the system sends an automated message out to the Marketplace User ..like “ Honda Phantom Bobber “ but I had never used the word Honda, yes Honda has at the real life a Phantom Bobber but that's a totally different Motorcycle, and had nothing to do with my motorcycle on the Marketplace.

If Honda has a phantom bobber, you can't use the name phantom bobber on a motorcycle at all, even if it's a different bike. Just because you take motorcycle A and label it with the name of motorcycle B doesn't mean you're not in violation of someone else's IP.

They own the name, not just the association with a specific product.

If you slap a coca cola label on a rocking horse, you're still violating Coke's IP.

While I totally think that LL SHOULD be more specific in their communications(even in yours!) in this case it really is quite clear what the problem is from your own description. You cannot use the proper names of RL items owned by other companies in your MP items. They don't have to match with the exact object. That's in the mesh upload quiz that everyone had to take.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:00 PM   #16 (permalink)
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However, the point the OP is making, which is an extension of all the points in all the threads thus far is that they're vague in what's causing the problem. She claims she doesn't know what, specifically was the issue- she even had other people look over her listings and didn't see an issue.

This would be stopped dead in its tracks if the email she got in the first place was something like this:

"Your item (item listing name here) has been removed from MP due to IP violations. In specific (blahdebloo) is a registered trademark of (whosyface) and cannot be used either on the product or in its description."

But that's not the email she got. When they remove the listing you can't even refer to it to see what the hell caused the issue.

While sometimes this should be painfully obvious (like coca cola, for example), in other cases it can be a lot more obscure, especially for people in other countries who may not have any idea that (blahdebloo) is a registered trademark in the US.

Once again, all this shit goes away if LL decides to communicate in a more specific manner.
I agree LL (and particularly the Marketplace) should communicate more clearly but since we've been complaining about the Marketplace's bizarre and opaque rules ever since LL took it over, I think most of us have come to accept that we're not going to get any help, and we have to play the game by their arcane and broken rules.

I really don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of the OP's case since I don't know the details. However, my impression is that the OP had somehow got the idea she was running into problems with trademarks (hence the references to Honda and to Phantom Bobber).

Knowing that the problem was, or might be, Honda trademarks, it took me all of 5 minutes to find a list of these online, which I think I would consult if I were selling models based on Honda bikes, at least after the first time or two my items were pulled and my account suspended.

But I don't want to criticise the OP, since I don't know what happened and, anyway, her situation sounds horrible and I really hope she can persuade LL to reconsider.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:01 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
I agree LL (and particularly the Marketplace) should communicate more clearly but since we've been complaining about the Marketplace's bizarre and opaque rules ever since LL took it over, I think most of us have come to accept that we're not going to get any help, and we have to play the game by their arcane and broken rules.

I really don't want to get into the rights and wrongs of the OP's case since I don't know the details. However, my impression is that the OP had somehow got the idea she was running into problems with trademarks (hence the references to Honda and to Phantom Bobber).

Knowing that the problem was, or might be, Honda trademarks, it took me all of 5 minutes to find a list of these online, which I think I would consult if I were selling models based on Honda bikes, at least after the first time or two my items were pulled and my account suspended.

But I don't want to criticise the OP, since I don't know what happened and, anyway, her situation sounds horrible and I really hope she can persuade LL to reconsider.

See my post above,. we crossed in the mail.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:10 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cerise View Post
I'm looking up reviews of Q's Customs bikes and they have things like actual brands and logos on them: Harley name and logo on bikes, Cherokee on SUVs, etc. Not even sort of similar but verbatim. OP is stretching the truth at best.
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Another reason for LL to be specific- then there would be no way to stretch the truth at all.

I'm not really sure but they if they actually say 'you used the name Harley for your item and it's a trademark' but then they let three others goes with Harley also in their name and/or other items that are trademarked--trhough either the same seller that didn't catch their eye or through other sellers....are they setting up themselves up for future litigation?

Where-as for trademarks (just keeping with that) wouldn't it be better for them to say "we removed <insert name of item> due to infringement per section whatever of the TOS"

If the person honestly didn't know, then they would be able to look back through their own personal records and be able to do a bit of research through google and realize what it is.

They really do need to state which item has been removed, that should never be a guessing game. Legally, I do question if they need to go above and beyond that.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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A lot of on that list would surely be valid only if it's paired with the Honda name- i can't imagine owning terms like "hurricane" and "rebel" for all motorcycles worldwide, and even less for other objects.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:21 PM   #20 (permalink)
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A lot of on that list would surely be valid only if it's paired with the Honda name- i can't imagine owning terms like "hurricane" and "rebel" for all motorcycles worldwide, and even less for other objects.

IIRC For vehicles and motorcycles, etc they do trademarks that go into as many countries as they can.

They no more want a Mercedes Benz being called a Chevy Benz then they would a Honda Rebel being called a Harley Rebel.

Names of the vehicle are just as important as the names of the company that produces them.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:22 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Not every element or every word is able to be trademarked. Sometimes it is just the design element of a logo that can be trademarked for a common word.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:29 PM   #22 (permalink)
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A lot of on that list would surely be valid only if it's paired with the Honda name- i can't imagine owning terms like "hurricane" and "rebel" for all motorcycles worldwide, and even less for other objects.
I don't know. I do know, however, that IP and Trademark law are complex, and also that they vary between jurisdictions, so what's permissible in the UK or Sweden may be completely unlawful in California, and that if it comes to a fight over trademarks between me and Honda, I'm going to lose.

Certainly after the first couple of times I'd been suspended, I think I'd decided to play it safe and avoid using any of the words on the list in my marketplace listings, or at least write to Honda to ask their permission.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:31 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Misty Harley View Post
I'm not really sure but they if they actually say 'you used the name Harley for your item and it's a trademark' but then they let three others goes with Harley also in their name and/or other items that are trademarked--trhough either the same seller that didn't catch their eye or through other sellers....are they setting up themselves up for future litigation?
Probably not since they rely on other users flagging a listing before it gets on their radar at all, and it states very specifically in the TOS that it is the user's responsibility to abide by copyright and IP law. Now if stuff is brought to their attention and they ignore some while punishing others that's grossly unfair, but they'd still probably have their ass covered by the TOS as to where the ultimate liability lies.
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Old 03-29-2016, 04:37 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Innula - Yeahh that's right Innula but as I start with Second Life and the Marketplace, I was totally clueless, the only orientation I had was to look into other competitors bike stores how they display her builds. As the IP-team deleted the first listing at my store I was shocked. Ok biggest problem was to find out where the problem was... I could just see a highlighted entry, but I had not longer access to this listing. With other Words no way to find out what was exactly wrong, and I got no email from the IP Team … Sure I ask the IP Team to a later time what was exactly wrong, but you got no feedback.


It was certainly a big mistake to be guided by competitors...


Later in 2015 i tryd to change the hole Marketplace, i made new pictures, I assure that I nowhere slightly hurt in the description, and that i used the right keywords. I have never said that I did not make any mistakes, i made misstakes just to the beginning.


And I was certainly not the scope aware and what consequences it may have. But had i only got a decent email from the IP-Team, with an explanation, where the problems are. All this would never have happened. Certainly it is not easy to understand everythink in english, im not english nativ, i'm from germany but thats no excuse... But I think it should be no problem to explain a problem sensibly.


It's not like that, because it did not want to do it right. I like my Second Life, and would never risk a permabann.



That's the curious, I have the Word Honda never used, where does it come from? Where did they found it on that listing ... i got never an answer



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Old 03-29-2016, 04:43 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cristalle View Post
Not every element or every word is able to be trademarked. Sometimes it is just the design element of a logo that can be trademarked for a common word.
not for names of vehicles.

This was 2013 write up

http://www.autonews.com/article/2013...rked-its-tough

this is a bit sooner and sorta delves into what Innula was speaking of re: different countries:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XdoHhqnCXcGk6w

There is more out there of course.
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