Humps

I apologise if I come across as patronising. Honestly that was not my intention.

....and to answer your question. YES. With your determination, your contacts and your reputation I DO really think you could make a difference. More importantly such an aproach would have a credibility that naming and shaming lacks.

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Ingrid

STFU

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"You know how this thread is going to end? I'll tell you how it's gonna end. It's going to end well." - Aimee Weber

Vivianne Draper

a line from the princess bride no?

edit: how can you disagree? Its in the fucking movie!

I swear you follow me around and disagree with everything I say just to be a fucking troll.

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Ten

Linden Lab has shown a constant reputation for never listening. Short of a flight out to LL HQ and pounding on their door, what we say online about their service doesn't matter much to them.

"Whatevah, whatever, I do what ah wan'!"

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Cindy Claveau

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Sometimes, "I hit it with my axe" is the best solution.

Vivianne Draper

So Danae came to Tenshi and presented her side of the story in a theft story. Tenshi was then faced with a decision to either blog it or not. Obviously, she felt that what she was presented with was worth blogging.

Now as I recall, when Minnu's skins were similarly ripped off with copybot, Tenshi had far less "evidence" and blogged it. This resulted in the entire community not only boycotting the store but filling the sim so that customers could not get in and holding signs outside the store sayign the proprietor was a thief. Minnu went on to proclaim that she would not produce more skins until LL did something about this problem. Many people wrote LL to complain and I believe there was an anti-theft campaign started with signs informing customers of participating shops that they shouldn't steal... am I right?

So a fraction of the action has happened to Minnu (her sim is, reportedly, empty) when Tenshi helped her. And not one person told Tenshi she shouldn't have blogged it until the guy was proven innocent. Less "proof" was presented then. Minnu sure didn't keep quiet back then. And the 'thief' was also approached for a statement.

But now Tenshi's bad and wrong and Minnu is right to keep quiet?

Whats up with the double standard here?

Dancien Graves

*humps Vivianne's leg*

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Chip Midnight

hehe, Viv, that's pretty much why these situations mostly make me want to stick my fingers in my ears and go lalalalalalalala! I've had people report skins to me that they thought were ripped from mine (and some of them very well might have been), so I'd go look, have doubts, and then decide to pretend I'd never seen it. I seriously wish this kind of shit never happened, and it's depressing when people show a complete lack of ethics, and to me it just sucks all the joy out of the experience of creating. Playing internet detective just isn't my idea of a good time. All I can do is hope that more often than not people's better natures will prevail. That probably makes me terribly naive. So be it. People have to live with their own consciences.

Humps

I think this actually highlights the problem. I certainly would not condone the action Minnu or the mob took above just as I don't condone what is happening now. I really do think that until there is clear and definate proof then people have a right to innocence until proven guilty.

Should Minnu be proved guilty of the charges, the very fact that s/he was a vocal and prominent participant in the 'outing method' gives the whole thing even less credibility as a method for change in my opinion.

I don't think it is a case of Ten being 'bad or wrong'. My point is that it is the 'method' that is most definately both bad and wrong.

Joannah Cramer

Well, technically --and if i understand it correctly-- that's rather what some people say she said. Minnu herself is witholding public comments as per lawyer's advice etc. And also (iirc) these 'other people' was either Danae by means of Tenshi, or Tenshi herself.

If someone can link to direct comment from Minnu to such effect, by all means please do so.

Iris Seale

OK, so a little birdie told me that there's an article that will appear in Ari's blog tomorrow in which he states that the EULA that came with Minnu's purchased Manhattan skin allows for commercial distribution for cash as a derivative work and render. There's a few holes in there, TO ME, that don't quite sit right.

1.) We know that Minnu contacted Ari to plead her case and answer his questions off the record. We can assume from this that Minnu stated she bought the Manhattan character pack and made her skins from it, adding makeup and therefore maybe-kinda-sorta qualifying it as a derivative work. She apparently presented the current EULA to him, which is available for free before buying the pack.

1a.) How do we know Minnu purchased the character pack to begin with? It can easily be stolen via torrents and p2p sharing. If she stole it, this EULA does not apply to her. I would have to see a receipt of purchase dated almost a year ago in order to believe this. This is also assuming that the EULA (which I've read) allows for this kind of commercial distribution, which I can't see.

2.) Ari contacted Minnu last night and this was the first time he'd talked to her. Those involved with Minnu know that she changes her story often and quickly, often stating 'bad english' as an excuse:

How can we possibly believe that she purchased the character pack based on faith alone? So far we have proof that she's told three different stories about the source of her skins:

and from Danae's Manhattan itself:

(usually, if someone's face in on my computer, I know darn well how it got there.)

and now they're sourced from the files, but protected by the EULA.

3.) And we've also learned that she cannot produce a layered PSD or work in progress--or any source. I don't know about other designers, but I'm paranoid I'll lose my work all the time. I save file iterations, tga's, and backup my last 2-months of work on a laptop I use for file-storage. What's older than 2 months goes onto a DVD that I keep in a safe (kidding about the safe.)

4.) She's silent on account of legal advice. Ok, that's understandable for--a little ways. But the way that her handlers describe this legal counsel is that they've been retained for a while now. If this were true, Tenshi and maybe even myself would have heard something and received a Cease and Desist either through registered mail or a watermarked email. Neither of us have. This would also assume that Minnu's legal counsel would have full knowledge of the cash flow Minnu receives from SL and that she's paid taxes and declared that accordingly. I've heard horror stories from foreign (mostly European) users about declaring and holding cash from SL with VAT taxes and that it takes forever to get their money. Minnu does not seem to have a problem with that. Of course, that's just my own conjecture.

Danae, who's apparently been away at her mother's, has not gotten a chance to respond to Ari's questions for his blog. At least, that's what I heard. To me it seems like:

1.) Danae knows her EULA.
2.) Why bother with this unless she's actually upset that someone is stealing her work and making RL cash with it?
3.) If this is a conspiracy to ruin Minnu and her associates, as Ari seems to believe, doesn't that seem a bit overblown?

So yeah, that's my overly-long opinion and questions. I feel kind of bad for Ari. He seems like a nice, intelligent guy and I feel that he was really, really fucked with.

Iris Seale

Also, I'm really concerned about Danae's anonymous source. Danae isn't here to say who it was, or isn't willing to, and I kind of feel like SCD (which I still love even if I don't blog there anymore; it's still kind of my baby) and Tenshi may have been screwed. My own personal theory is that Minnu is actually behind it all, but I kind of feel like I'd need a tinfoil hat if I said that.

Ten

Well I told you I was a little leery of it at first as well but I checked the email sources and it appears to be completely legit.

Unless, of course, Minnu happens to be Danae and this is all an amazing stunt. The biting reactions from Camp Minnu, however, seem to indicate differently.

Ten

This is interesting. Welcome to the Train Wreck Love Life: but when you said that I wasn't worth talking to, I had to take your word on that

Vivianne Draper

But no one, including you I believe, said anything on the thread here about how Tenshi shouldn't have blogged it when she came out in favor of Minnu several months ago. And you know what? The sellers in SL haven't exactly been silent about the issue. The only ones that have were Stroker and the other sellers in SL that stood with him -- they kept quiet for a long time but eventually the story came and it came out before court. WAY before court as I recall.

Hell I remember back before Naughty Island when Lost and A2A had their store elsewhere and when you walked into it you were greeted with all kinds of signs about how theft was bad and wrong and you were only buying a license to use the product and you didn't own it etc etc. Hell they had so many signs it pissed me off and I stopped shopping there until they removed them. And then there was the tear against Frangipani Designs back when they first opened up and you should have seen the sellers gang up on those folks. But now, when the shoe is on the other foot, they should have the right to be innocent until proven guilty when they have NEVER granted that right to anyone else? Bag that.

I don't know your history with SL or the third-party boards and maybe you've been around since 03 and just missed all this drama. But I don't think Tenshi is doing anything that is not a well established pattern set long ago by a large group (yes they have a group in world) of sellers. Minnu herself helped to set this pattern and now she is reaping what she sowed.

Maybe if the pattern set had been to quietly go about filing DMCAs and the community had not been appealed to time and time again, I could see your point. But the fact is that the community has been appealed to time and time again, and that this is not a pattern that Tenshi started.

Ten

I remember the Frangipani thing. That was... odd. If you want a witch hunt, you can count that as one.




I saw someone else a short while ago - maybe here, maybe elsewhere, I can't remember - that reading SCD is like getting a little bit of consumer education.

I don't think anyone ever has to agree with me. Hell, they're more than welcome to disagree with me - but if you're going to do that, then just DISAGREE. Don't go around taking personal hits at me because you think it's funny, you know?

Siyu Suen

How funny would it be if Minnu actually was Daryl Hannah?

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"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever" -Baron Munchausen

I'm attempting to bring about the end of the world to usher in a new era of mask wielding overlords. This is how!

Joshua Nightshade

Actually I hear more shit about Minnu the longer this goes on. Like how she and her business associates harassed a content creator I know and accused her of theft and threatened to DMCA and sue her if she didn't close up her store.

This right to be innocent thing is ironic.

Sonja Aeghin

*stays tuned*

Ingrid

From what I understand your point is "Why Tenshi and why now?". For me anyways, I became aware of what she does because she'd done it to people I know personally. I'm not part of any of the fashion groups where most of this type of drama is heavily debatted, and witch-hunts happen, precisely for that reason.

I do, however, read this forum regularly.

Maybe Minnu's no saint, but I still can't stand the accusations (that may not always be justified) when it comes to anyone.

Ten

Don't pretend you weren't involved in it, you're a part of Paper Couture as well. This is about what I did to YOU, not anyone else.

Ten

Well come on, elaborate already.



MNN - Major skin designers close to protest piracy

Quiplash

I'm waiting until I feel sufficiently masochistic.

Joshua Nightshade

I was asked to not get into detail about it.

Ingrid

I think you just proved my point. You've done the same thing to others that you did to us countless times since calling some of PC thieves. Hence, my awareness of this bad habit of yours.