Cindy Claveau

SL is a low-res world. If you think lag and rez times and the asset server are a problem now, just imagine ...

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Sometimes, "I hit it with my axe" is the best solution.

Ten

Don't be surprised if they don't make it.

I read that piece, and I can't say I feel it's "Devil's Advocate" or anything but riding the fence on the whole issue. He brought up a lot of "questions" that have been answered (many times over, even) and seems to simply be riding the coattails of SCD with pingbacks and links and such.

It happens often at SCD, and it's a little irritating. A well rounded rebuttle I would have welcomed, but whatever he wrote... is not something I consider as such.

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sezmra

This is what I've been trying to explain to the SCD comment crowd but I don't think any of them will have it. It's just not DRAMATIC enough!

It makes no freakin' sense to rip someone's work that is clearly not categorized as a merchant resource. There's just so many leetle "WTF" questions around this whole mess.

Eh well.

Chip is right about the PS thing. I don't use 3d programs for any of my skins. I'll never admit to being anything but "passable" in the skin market - but if you learn to wrangle the templates around, you can definitely get what you need/want. Seams are indeed a bitch, but there are techniques you can use to overcome them.

I'd love to try my hand at the 3D aspect of skin creation, if anything, to experiment and see what I can do with it. I just may be too used to the old fashioned method of painting first, troubleshooting later. PS CS3 has definitely made that easier with mesh support, at least.

Ten

Some of the SCD crowd have problems with comprehension.

Chip Midnight

I can see someone thinking the license allowed for making an SL skin and it not being intentional infringement, but as I mentioned before, I'm too nice. The important thing at this point is the response, and that hasn't helped the matter at all.

It's very common for two different skin makers to produce something that looks so close that it raises suspicions, especially among those doing photorealism. The reasons for that are pretty obvious. There's only one good source for licensed photos and everyone uses it. Two skinners using the same source and very similar techniques will naturally produce skins that look very similar. Lost, Namssor, and I all have skins that people might think were one of us ripping the other and then modifying it. The evidence in this case looks pretty damning, but to me it's not totally beyond the realm of possibility that it could still be coincidental. That's why I'm always very hesitant to declare anyone guilty.

sezmra

Yes, you're too nice Chip - but that's okay, niceness is kind of rare anyway.

I can agree that some people who may not necessarily be as obsessive as I about this kind of thing, would consider a particular license as "okay". I guess I'm just jaded - by people who have stolen MY skins in the past and taken credit for them... and now a hugely popular skin maker could be guilty of the same thing, just from a different angle.

I should step up my own business and quit worrying about it, though. Heh!

Beezle Warburton

You know you like it.

(And where'd the custom smiley uploader move to?)

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Ten

Minnu's new website is up. -=Glam World Magazine=-

Around how much does it cost to develop such a site?

Summer

I don't know how much something like this costs to have made but it doesn't appear to be fully functional when you try to link off the top layers and or it just doesn't work right for me.

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Summer time is a nice time.

Dancien Graves

Actually if you know flash. Not entirely much.

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Ran Garrigus

"Merchant resource" is just this thing Renderosity merchants tag certain items as with the idea that savvy Renderosity users will realize that they're in the free-and-clear to use it whichever which way without having to worry about testing the terms of the Renderosity license. I don't know that a court would consider it highly relevant whether it is one or not, when ultimately what might matter is the license under which the Manhattan texture package was sold (if it was indeed sold to Minnu, and if she used it according to her understanding of the licensing terms).

We keep coming back to the idea that what should matter legally is not what the license says, but what the Renderosity merchants believe it to mean. That's not how contract issues are hashed out in court, however. If Minnu were to rest her case on being legally allowed to do as she did based on a legal, licensed purchase, the court would definitely be focusing on whether it's a derivative work, whether original materials can be extracted, and perhaps on whether it's being used for rendering.

Personally, if I had bought it and used it that way because I thought the license allowed for it, and then the seller came at me claiming that no, that's no the case, well ... avoiding going to court is, all around, a good idea. I'd probably try for an amicable settlement -- an additional license, say, with royalties attached, to last a period of time at the end of which the skin would be retired from sale and hopefully I'd have a Gen 5 ready by then to take its place.

But that's me. I wouldn't even have gotten into the situation in the first place, of course, as I would mail the seller and ask them to clarify what they intend when they say "renders" (like, would rendering low-res models in real time be allowed) and "derivative works". I'd just prefer to clear up any vagueness so that a purchase doesn't come back to bite me on the ass.

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• Old Fashioned -- Occasional SL fashion reviews.

Ten

The sale shouldn't come back and bite Danae in the ass. Her TOS states it's for renders - user-created images - and not resale.

Hypatia Callisto

yeah, I noticed.

Well, I've seen skins that "look similar" before, but they're never EXACTLY the same in small details, because really you have to shade and remove highlights to make things look even. I remember a case in point with Lost and Funk Schnook (FNKY) but I could see immediately they were not the same skin, and said so.

I can't say so in the case of Minnu and Danae. I've looked at skins for a LONG long time... you don't produce a virtually identical skin, aside from makeup diffs by accident when you are using multiple photosources. Yes they differ slightly, in the makeup department. How many times have I seen the "rip n add gaudy makeup" problem before? Someone please give me money every time it happens, I'd have enough to retire on in short order.

If Minnu said

"Look, I bought it, used it and I think I have a right to use it"

I'd actually think she had a defensible position to work from, because so many people actually have used Poser rendered work in this way a long long time - and technically baking to a low res mesh is a render, you are just rendering to different uvmaps. Still, though I do consider it really morally ambiguous to use someone elses texture unless its licensed for use in texture creation (I believe the Renderosity license needs to be far more clear to cover this situation and not just rely on artist readmes). Someone could really believe this, and it's not a far fetched position.

The excuses and attacks I see on Danae by people who speak for Minnu and support her are what really make me wonder. Attacking the victim has always made me feel sick to my stomach. I've been in Danae's position in the past, so my support is for her.

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"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"

"I suppose so," said Alice.

"Well, then," the Cat went on, "you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

"I call it purring, not growling," said Alice.

"Call it what you like," said the Cat.

Hypatia Callisto

Merchant resources for skins exist on DAZ and other Poser sites as well, and it was done so people could do work without worrying about seam issues which is a huge annoyance and time consumer when making skin in pure Photoshop. (yes, some of us have been around a long time here... don't spread FUD )

It was meant to speed up the development process to create new characters, especially useful for people who's main talent is in morph creation and not texture creation, but know a morph set would sell better with a character texture. It is also used by people who want easily modifiable bits of textures to mod other Poser skin textures for use in character renderings. (these cant be sold, but that's not an issue for people doing graphic novels, who are selling the renderings and not the textures)

Nowadays seam issues are less of a problem with the abundance of 3d painting software at a price people can afford, but the merchant resources are still very useful to use as a jumping off point when building a new character skin.

Aki Shichiroji

So it seems to me that the equivalent in terms of license usage would be say... something similar to working off Eloh's open sourced skins?

I know of a number of people who have made mods to that series of skin and now sell them as per Eloh's conditions for resale - they actually do quite well. Seems to me a fashion designer who wanted to have a line of skins accompanying their product (but who didn't want to spend the time on making entirely new products) might find this useful.

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Hypatia Callisto

It is similar, but not quite. Eloh is distributing via BSD license, whereas there is no open source style license for the majority of merchant resources I've seen. Pretty much they are more or less like the dreaded "business in a box" except the huge difference is: Merchant resources on Renderosity, Daz, etc, are tested before hitting the site. Which weeds out a lot of spurious products. (though DAZ is way way more restrictive than Rendo - the fact that Rendo does do testing does limit the level of crap, such as you see on SLExchange and OnRez)

Daisy Rimbaud

Yes, it's a good thing, I know, I know. But I'm sloppy and lazy and I don't. No point in "disagreeing". I don't. So maybe others don't either.

Ingrid

The (Second Life) Rag: Minnu the Mauler

I have to agree with Cindy, you're too emotionally invested in this for it to be healthy. (yes we all know this is your blog)

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"You know how this thread is going to end? I'll tell you how it's gonna end. It's going to end well." - Aimee Weber

Psyke Phaeton

Wow what an annoying site. Nice graphics the sounds and popup pages suck

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Hypatia Callisto

I somehow suspect Tenshi Vielle is very healthy indeed, and probably delighting in everything! A female Matt Drudge... geeze the level of comments she's getting - money can't buy that kind of attention, srsly.

I honestly can't be assed to care, except in one aspect: please separate issues relating to Danae/use of Poser textures from personal issues with Tenshi (I realise a lot of you folks have issues with her - many quite valid). I believe this is clouding the issue in a major way, and THAT I think is unhealthy.

I think what's really unhealthy is to tar all people with the same brush. Say what you like about Tenshi - not liking the style and past antics of the delivery boy of a message doesn't impact at all whether the message has merit, or is true or not. That I have to say is quite unhealthy in my observation of the comments at SCD.

Ingrid

I think the fact that Tenshi had a personal issue with Minnu IS absolutely relevant and part of all of this.

Perhaps you could start a thread solely about the use of Poser textures if you want to separate the two.

Siyu Suen

I think this situation is a bit like Michael Moore doing an expose on Sony or General Electric or some other large company. You have to be dubious of the source, but if the evidence presented lines up and you can find no evidence to the contrary, it's hard not to be swayed unless you have your fingers in your ears. Yes, she might have a personal grudge against Minnu for all we know, but frankly that only matters to me if she's fabricated this entire thing. I choose to believe that the creator was contacted, and in turn wanted to stop her work being resold and was told that Tenshi was the person to go to to reach the most people about it. But if it's all a lie, then I say it's open season.

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"Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever" -Baron Munchausen

I'm attempting to bring about the end of the world to usher in a new era of mask wielding overlords. This is how!

Ten

Oh stop it, Ingrid, really. Why don't you just stay on topic of comparing the two skins or talking about the issue, instead of me?

(To answer my own question: it's easier to attack the writer than the content.)

Regardless of my "investment" with Minnu, my last two writings about her (McQueen, Renderosity) have come from other people, tips if you will. I don't sit there and stew and think of ways to pluck her off.

I don't have time for that sort of junk, do you?

Hypatia Callisto

People like LadyElf and others who are merchants at sites like DAZ and Renderosity really do not care about issues regarding Tenshi and SLHerald. By now the comments are morphing to attack Danae who has had nothing at all to do with Tenshi's past, simply due to Tenshi's past. I have every right to see that as wrong, and I am not the only one who does - there are silent folks who agree who are site admins of other major Poser sites, many I know as personal friends. I see my own comment on Ari's blog is probably withheld for the same reasons - prejudice against Tenshi, even though I really do not know Tenshi very well and have spoken out against some of her stories on occasion.

So, whatever. I am not making a new thread on it. I think this one is quite relevant to the attacks going on people are not Tenshi, but are mauled due to misplaced Tenshi-hate.

Meh, I was in a car accident last night, I should tend my neck now. Enjoy, and take care of the reputation

Ten

Hey, that's really big of you, Siyu.