SLUniverse Forums

Vivianne Draper · 05-08-2008, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ran Garrigus

That's hardly the only change involved in bringing it to the SL platform, Io. I did mention some others.

But in the end, derivative works are allowed, and while you may extract a derivative work via SL, does that constitute extracting the original material?

I cannot find a definition of original materials on Renderosity's site. I don't know if it's a term of art, a legal term, or whatever.

Minnu's skin is not a derivative work. It is exactly the same thing ported into a different medium and then claimed as her own.

Wildefire Walcott · 05-08-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivianne Draper

Minnu's skin is not a derivative work. It is exactly the same thing ported into a different medium and then claimed as her own.

I agree, unless Ran is claiming that both people based their skin on yet another person's work. (I haven't read all of Ran's posts, so I don't know if that's what Ran means.)

Io Zeno · 05-08-2008, 07:41 PM

I have admitted that I had a red flag over Minnu because of the belt incident and that may color my willingness to believe the worst. But I have no axe to grind at all. I don't know these people or compete with them nor do I wish them ill. I hope for everyone's sake that it really isn't theft. This sort of thing isn't good for anyone, creators or customers.

Stephanie Misfit · 05-08-2008, 07:53 PM

Discussions on the copyright forums at Renderosity make it pretty clear that even using textures derived from a render of a Poser character to make an SL skin would be in breach of the license.

This discussion may be of interest http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forum...ead_id=2735767

Ran Garrigus · 05-08-2008, 08:16 PM

Right now I'm convinced that Minnu's skin seems to be drawn in large part from the Danae's skin. So no, not claiming that they just used the same sources.

That said, I know what derivative works are in copyright law ("A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.") and depending on the amount and degree of effort that went into the creation of Minnu's skins, I do think it entirely feasible that they might qualify as such a work.

Editing, adjusting, tweaking, and otherwise modifying it in an original way that requires some sort of skill and process seems not much different from revising, annotating, or elaborating on something. Usually, creators control the right of making or allowing derivative works. Renderosity's license nullifies those rights as part of the license, so long as the original material cannot be extracted from the derivative.

Stephanie Misfit · 05-08-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ran Garrigus

Usually, creators control the right of making or allowing derivative works. Renderosity's license nullifies those rights as part of the license, so long as the original material cannot be extracted from the derivative.

Alas, we all know that it can be extracted.

Joannah Cramer · 05-08-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildefire Walcott

I also wanted to note that the graphics I've seen on Renderosity make SL look like fucking Habbo Hotel.

Well, one is rendered real-time (60+ times per second on reasonable computer) while the other performs all kind of extra calculations that can take minutes and sometimes hours for to accomplish a single frame. So yeah, there's bound to be quality difference there.

On the original subject, interesting news. I'm rather curious if Danae's work was derived from some common source (like All the Human Photo References and Textures 3D Artist Wants) in the first place, as it could provide alternative explanation to the whole thing. You can ask Chip Midnight and Lost Thereian how relying on the same convenient source can lead to funny effects

Stephanie Misfit · 05-09-2008, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joannah Cramer

I'm rather curious if Danae's work was derived from some common source (like All the Human Photo References and Textures 3D Artist Wants) in the first place, as it could provide alternative explanation to the whole thing.

The sources for danae's textures were listed in the comments of the SCD post. These included photos from 3d.sk, and photos of danae and her husband that only she has access to (these were for key areas such as the eyebrows). Not very likely that someone would use exactly the same multiple sources, especially when some are not even available to the public.

Joannah Cramer · 05-09-2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephanie Misfit

The sources for danae's textures were listed in the comments of the SCD post. These included photos from 3d.sk, and photos of danae and her husband that only she has access to (these were for key areas such as the eyebrows). Not very likely that someone would use exactly the same multiple sources, especially when some are not even available to the public.

Yeah i went over and read the SCD comments while SLU was down, there was comment from Danae to the effect multiple sources were used and meshed together. Quite different from using just one set and i'll agree it's extremely unlikely two people would happen to combine multiple sources in such similar manner, even if it was all publicly available. (and some apparently wasn't, too boot)

CoyoteMomiji · 05-09-2008, 02:06 AM

Ran, to be blunt, if you suggested such an action was fine on the Renderosity's copyright forum, you'd have several people (including the moderators) up your ass and at your throat faster than you can say "awarded damages".

Ran Garrigus · 05-09-2008, 02:18 AM

Stephanie,

The derivative textures might be extracted, yes, yes. The "original materials" however? What constitutes "original material"? A court might well decide that the "original materials" are not extractable from Minnu's skins, since the term is not sufficiently defined.

Coyote,

That's fine. That's obviously what's happened here. Does this mean they are correct? It doesn't seem to me that making a claim equates with being right about the claim.

The intent of the Renderosity license is one thing. The enforcable aspects of the license may be a completely different thing.

Stephanie Misfit · 05-09-2008, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoyoteMomiji

Ran, to be blunt, if you suggested such an action was fine on the Renderosity's copyright forum, you'd have several people (including the moderators) up your ass and at your throat faster than you can say "awarded damages".

Siyu Suen · 05-09-2008, 02:47 AM

Btw, Hi Stephanie

I used you as an example of beautiful hand drawn skins, I think in the recommended skin thread

Daisy Rimbaud · 05-09-2008, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ran Garrigus

The derivative textures might be extracted, yes, yes. The "original materials" however? What constitutes "original material"? A court might well decide that the "original materials" are not extractable from Minnu's skins, since the term is not sufficiently defined.

Well, this is a key issue. I've been through this sort of argument many times at Renderosity and similar forums. Making renders from a Poser skin on a Poser model is fine, as you cannot extract the original skin texture from that. Making a render of the skin on a flat plane (viewed normally) would not be OK, as the original could easily be reconstructed.

Converting a Poser skin to SL is far from straightforward; it takes significant effort. Back-engineering that would be impossible, i.e. there is no way to get back to the original Poser skin file from the SL skin. (And the loss of resolution is huge, anyway).

So Minnu would have some defense; it's not such a clear cut case of theft as it would be if the skins were resold for the Poser market (which has happened).

I'm not saying that what Minnu did was OK - only that a case could be made in Minnu's defense.

Stephanie Misfit · 05-09-2008, 08:12 AM

From danae's comments on the SCD post, it looks like Minnu has yet to provide any kind of defense

Quote:

May 9, 2008 at 9.43am
Danae Kotsi:

How can any content creator:
1 - Not have ANY layered, WIP, Photoshop files handy to prove that they have been working on a specific product ?
2 - How does ANY respectable contect creator not be able to produce any sources of their Reference Images used with the excuse that they have been using low res photos found randomly on the net and on porno sites?
3- How does any content creator imply that they might or might not have used renders of products other than their own again randomly found on the net ?
4 - How can any respectable and highly paid content creator not respond in any way to the accusations made ?

Charlemagne Allen · 05-09-2008, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Vogel

RSS feed from 1984

There were RSS feeds in 1984?

Daisy Rimbaud · 05-09-2008, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephanie Misfit

From danae's comments on the SCD post, it looks like Minnu has yet to provide any kind of defense

Well, Minnu will certainly have layered Photoshop files. But they will most likely be 500x500, whereas the original Poser skin will probably have been four times larger.

bilbo99 emu · 05-09-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlemagne Allen

There were RSS feeds in 1984?

I think Troy meant as in Orwell?
I could be wrong ... it's Friday .. nah .. can't be wrong!

Chalice Yao · 05-09-2008, 08:42 AM

And..it's on the Herald:

Second Life Herald: Minnu Model Skins PhotoSourced from Renderosity???

That'll feed the 'lol SL' crowd for a while.

Atashi Yue · 05-09-2008, 08:47 AM

I find it odd that Minnu would use a shape that matches the shape of the original model that Danae used.

Stephanie Misfit · 05-09-2008, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalice Yao

And..it's on the Herald:

Second Life Herald: Minnu Model Skins PhotoSourced from Renderosity???

That'll feed the 'lol SL' crowd for a while.

They'll still manage to turn it into a post about the PN.

Khamon · 05-09-2008, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlemagne Allen

There were RSS feeds in 1984?

Yes, comp.future.services.rss

05-08-2008, 08:16 PM	#255 (permalink)
Ran Garrigus Weirdo in a Weird Land Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 213	Right now I'm convinced that Minnu's skin seems to be drawn in large part from the Danae's skin. So no, not claiming that they just used the same sources. That said, I know what derivative works are in copyright law ("A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.") and depending on the amount and degree of effort that went into the creation of Minnu's skins, I do think it entirely feasible that they might qualify as such a work. Editing, adjusting, tweaking, and otherwise modifying it in an original way that requires some sort of skill and process seems not much different from revising, annotating, or elaborating on something. Usually, creators control the right of making or allowing derivative works. Renderosity's license nullifies those rights as part of the license, so long as the original material cannot be extracted from the derivative. __________________ Old Fashioned -- Occasional SL fashion reviews.

05-09-2008, 02:06 AM	#260 (permalink)
CoyoteMomiji is oh-so-Slick I stopped the signal. Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 1,550 SL Join Date: 01/26/06 Business: Slick SLShopper Ads: 15 My Mood:	Ran, to be blunt, if you suggested such an action was fine on the Renderosity's copyright forum, you'd have several people (including the moderators) up your ass and at your throat faster than you can say "awarded damages". __________________ Slick in Mikianna

05-08-2008, 07:41 PM	#253 (permalink)
Io Zeno MAD DOG Rabid Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 12,334 My Mood: Awards: 1	I have admitted that I had a red flag over Minnu because of the belt incident and that may color my willingness to believe the worst. But I have no axe to grind at all. I don't know these people or compete with them nor do I wish them ill. I hope for everyone's sake that it really isn't theft. This sort of thing isn't good for anyone, creators or customers.

05-08-2008, 07:53 PM	#254 (permalink)
Stephanie Misfit Senior Member Lurker Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Tasmania Posts: 115 SL Join Date: 05/25/06 Business: La Sylphide SLShopper Ads: 5 My Mood:	Discussions on the copyright forums at Renderosity make it pretty clear that even using textures derived from a render of a Poser character to make an SL skin would be in breach of the license. This discussion may be of interest http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forum...ead_id=2735767

05-09-2008, 02:18 AM	#261 (permalink)
Ran Garrigus Weirdo in a Weird Land Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 213	Stephanie, The derivative textures might be extracted, yes, yes. The "original materials" however? What constitutes "original material"? A court might well decide that the "original materials" are not extractable from Minnu's skins, since the term is not sufficiently defined. Coyote, That's fine. That's obviously what's happened here. Does this mean they are correct? It doesn't seem to me that making a claim equates with being right about the claim. The intent of the Renderosity license is one thing. The enforcable aspects of the license may be a completely different thing.

05-09-2008, 08:42 AM	#269 (permalink)
Chalice Yao The Purple Kinda at work. Somewhat. Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Somewhere purple, Germany Posts: 1,117 My Mood:	And..it's on the Herald: Second Life Herald: Minnu Model Skins PhotoSourced from Renderosity??? That'll feed the 'lol SL' crowd for a while.

05-09-2008, 08:47 AM	#270 (permalink)
Atashi Yue Meh(Tee Em) Outside the Median Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,013 SLShopper Ads: 4 My Mood:	I find it odd that Minnu would use a shape that matches the shape of the original model that Danae used.