Vivianne Draper

Minnu's skin is not a derivative work. It is exactly the same thing ported into a different medium and then claimed as her own.

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Wildefire Walcott

I agree, unless Ran is claiming that both people based their skin on yet another person's work. (I haven't read all of Ran's posts, so I don't know if that's what Ran means.)

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Io Zeno

I have admitted that I had a red flag over Minnu because of the belt incident and that may color my willingness to believe the worst. But I have no axe to grind at all. I don't know these people or compete with them nor do I wish them ill. I hope for everyone's sake that it really isn't theft. This sort of thing isn't good for anyone, creators or customers.

Stephanie Misfit

Discussions on the copyright forums at Renderosity make it pretty clear that even using textures derived from a render of a Poser character to make an SL skin would be in breach of the license.

This discussion may be of interest http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forum...ead_id=2735767

Ran Garrigus

Right now I'm convinced that Minnu's skin seems to be drawn in large part from the Danae's skin. So no, not claiming that they just used the same sources.

That said, I know what derivative works are in copyright law ("A work consisting of editorial revisions, annotations, elaborations, or other modifications which, as a whole, represent an original work of authorship, is a “derivative work”.") and depending on the amount and degree of effort that went into the creation of Minnu's skins, I do think it entirely feasible that they might qualify as such a work.

Editing, adjusting, tweaking, and otherwise modifying it in an original way that requires some sort of skill and process seems not much different from revising, annotating, or elaborating on something. Usually, creators control the right of making or allowing derivative works. Renderosity's license nullifies those rights as part of the license, so long as the original material cannot be extracted from the derivative.

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Stephanie Misfit

Alas, we all know that it can be extracted.

Joannah Cramer

Well, one is rendered real-time (60+ times per second on reasonable computer) while the other performs all kind of extra calculations that can take minutes and sometimes hours for to accomplish a single frame. So yeah, there's bound to be quality difference there.

On the original subject, interesting news. I'm rather curious if Danae's work was derived from some common source (like All the Human Photo References and Textures 3D Artist Wants) in the first place, as it could provide alternative explanation to the whole thing. You can ask Chip Midnight and Lost Thereian how relying on the same convenient source can lead to funny effects

Stephanie Misfit

The sources for danae's textures were listed in the comments of the SCD post. These included photos from 3d.sk, and photos of danae and her husband that only she has access to (these were for key areas such as the eyebrows). Not very likely that someone would use exactly the same multiple sources, especially when some are not even available to the public.

Joannah Cramer

Yeah i went over and read the SCD comments while SLU was down, there was comment from Danae to the effect multiple sources were used and meshed together. Quite different from using just one set and i'll agree it's extremely unlikely two people would happen to combine multiple sources in such similar manner, even if it was all publicly available. (and some apparently wasn't, too boot)

CoyoteMomiji

Ran, to be blunt, if you suggested such an action was fine on the Renderosity's copyright forum, you'd have several people (including the moderators) up your ass and at your throat faster than you can say "awarded damages".

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Ran Garrigus

Stephanie,

The derivative textures might be extracted, yes, yes. The "original materials" however? What constitutes "original material"? A court might well decide that the "original materials" are not extractable from Minnu's skins, since the term is not sufficiently defined.

Coyote,

That's fine. That's obviously what's happened here. Does this mean they are correct? It doesn't seem to me that making a claim equates with being right about the claim.

The intent of the Renderosity license is one thing. The enforcable aspects of the license may be a completely different thing.

Stephanie Misfit

Siyu Suen

Btw, Hi Stephanie I used you as an example of beautiful hand drawn skins, I think in the recommended skin thread

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Daisy Rimbaud

Well, this is a key issue. I've been through this sort of argument many times at Renderosity and similar forums. Making renders from a Poser skin on a Poser model is fine, as you cannot extract the original skin texture from that. Making a render of the skin on a flat plane (viewed normally) would not be OK, as the original could easily be reconstructed.

Converting a Poser skin to SL is far from straightforward; it takes significant effort. Back-engineering that would be impossible, i.e. there is no way to get back to the original Poser skin file from the SL skin. (And the loss of resolution is huge, anyway).

So Minnu would have some defense; it's not such a clear cut case of theft as it would be if the skins were resold for the Poser market (which has happened).

I'm not saying that what Minnu did was OK - only that a case could be made in Minnu's defense.

Stephanie Misfit

From danae's comments on the SCD post, it looks like Minnu has yet to provide any kind of defense

Charlemagne Allen

There were RSS feeds in 1984?

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Daisy Rimbaud

Well, Minnu will certainly have layered Photoshop files. But they will most likely be 500x500, whereas the original Poser skin will probably have been four times larger.

bilbo99 emu

I think Troy meant as in Orwell?
I could be wrong ... it's Friday .. nah .. can't be wrong!

Chalice Yao

And..it's on the Herald:

Second Life Herald: Minnu Model Skins PhotoSourced from Renderosity???

That'll feed the 'lol SL' crowd for a while.

Atashi Yue

I find it odd that Minnu would use a shape that matches the shape of the original model that Danae used.

Stephanie Misfit

They'll still manage to turn it into a post about the PN.

Khamon

Yes, comp.future.services.rss

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Summer

I thought Prokofy wasn't a writer for the Herald anymore? When I went to see the article posted above I scrolled through the others and noticed one from him. It's just all too much to keep up on. *drama hand to forehead* I need a beverage.

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Ten

Minnu is claiming these things with Danae:

1) The skins are from low-res porn images.
2) She used google image search. She can't find the sources.
3) Vista ate her other files.

She's sending Danae all kinds of files, not the one file Danae wants and needs. Minnu's files, also, are completely flat skins with only a couple other layers for eyebrows. A little fishy, hm?

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Quantum Destiny

So she is not even making a 'derivative' argument? She claims she hasn't used Danae's work at all?