Logo

Quantum Destiny · 05-08-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Io Zeno

And redistribution is not nullified if you mess with it, fyi. I can't take a copyright protected photograph into photoshop and change it a little and then it's mine to resell. No resell means no resell.

.

Troy Vogel · 05-08-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Io Zeno

Well since she said she is speaking to her lawyers and talking about compensation, it seems the artist herself is pretty damn sure that is her work. And although you and your photographer, who is not an illustrator or 3d artist, ahem, may not see the details that to us are rather damning, it looks that way to me.

And honestly, no, none of us can tell just by staring at it beyond any reasonable doubt that this is theft. However, this may indeed wind up in a a court of law.

Maybe I have my forum bulbs screwed in wrong today. :-)

SL surely has changed my POV in terms of what constitutes stealing. I have had to forgive so many and defend myself in a few situations so I am not sure, it all became quite relative to me.

I am surprised to see you all still so in the realm of absolutes. Kind of made me think there was something wrong with me. Made me left out, like in the rain soaking on the sidewalk all by myself and my relativism :-)

**Io Zeno** · 05-08-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ran Garrigus

Io,

Say it a fourth, if needs be, because I don't think we're talking about the same things.

Who says it's "nothing more" than the texture itself? Makeups, skin tones, slicing it up to fit the mesh right, dealing with seams, other aesthetic changes -- these may be nothing but minor tweaks, but they are tweaks, and they seem to me to at least suggest some movement away from "original materials".

So again, what are "original materials"? How much modification to the original textures are needed before it's no longer "original material" that can be extracted?

It doesn't matter, Ran. If you do not have permission to resell that texture, modified or not, you just don't.

It is no different than when I use photographs in my own graphic work. I can use them in the context of an ad. I cannot resell them alone, as photographs, period.

A skin is nothing but a 3d texture and the artist is selling 3d textures. The use is the same.

Ten · 05-08-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ran Garrigus

Io,

Say it a fourth, if needs be, because I don't think we're talking about the same things.

Yeah, you're really not reading anything. I'm the one that asked you if we should try for a fourth, not Io. I will be dismissing your comments from here on out, because it appears you're more than a bit confused.

Troy Vogel · 05-08-2008, 06:10 PM

Tell me honestly...how many male skin makers are sitting there drawing the abs and serratus muscles ripple by ripple and not using some photosource? Come on...

Human anatomy is difficult stuff. Everyone uses a reference, and like someone pointed, there would be no copy paste solution to port a skin like this from a 3D app to SL, someone has to sit down and do it piece by piece, deal with seams, mesh distortions etc... so it's not an effortless rip and sell.

As for proving the break of TOS of the original skin in court, good luck with that.

A lawyer costs $2000 a day to hire for cases like this. How much is the artist planning to get from the court exactly to make up for all the cost of preparing for this trial?

When shit like this happens, you're pretty much screwed. Sorry to say it but you are. There's still a builder in SL, still selling ripped versions of my furniture -- copied prim by prim and re-textured. There was no stopping her, and her shame failed, and at the time I was given the answer I am delivering to you today.

I guess we shall see in the coming weeks.

Ten · 05-08-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Vogel

Tell me honestly...how many male skin makers are sitting there drawing the abs and serratus muscles ripple by ripple and not using some photosource? Come on...

Um, I did. But there again, my skins never got that detailed and were never released to the public. I finally gave up and went to Eloh's skins for a base to modify.

MANY people sit there and draw their skins by hand. It's foolish to say "everyone photosources!" No, we don't have to. We see "skins" every freaking day on our own bodies, we know what we look like and where things go.

**Io Zeno** · 05-08-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Vogel

Maybe I have my forum bulbs screwed in wrong today. :-)

SL surely has changed my POV in terms of what constitutes stealing. I have had to forgive so many and defend myself in a few situations so I am not sure, it all became quite relative to me.

I am surprised to see you all still so in the realm of absolutes. Kind of made me think there was something wrong with me. Made me left out, like in the rain soaking on the sidewalk all by myself and my relativism :-)

Honestly, Troy, its the preponderance of evidence in the photos Tenshi's blog to me. The back and elbows have exactly the same shading, the belly button is the same exact belly button and so on and so forth. Then you add the eyebrows. Really, it's pretty damning to me. Especially given that ripping Renderosity skins isn't something new for SL.

But we aren't judge and jury. If I am wrong I will say so. This is just a forum and Minnu honestly has more than our opinion to worry about at this point.

Ten · 05-08-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Vogel

A lawyer costs $2000 a day to hire for cases like this. How much is the artist planning to get from the court exactly to make up for all the cost of preparing for this trial?

Minnu has two sims that she currently maintains and is working on finishing a third. How much do YOU think she's pulling in from Danae's textures?

sezmra · 05-08-2008, 06:13 PM

Photosource is from photographs.

This was from a SKIN already made from photographs. Which is quite literally tons more work than just fitting it to another mesh. I do know that much.

Big diff.

Ran Garrigus · 05-08-2008, 06:15 PM

I'm looking at the license again, and it doesn't say you can't resell the texture. Not in those words. It says you can't sell derivative works where the original materials can be extracted.

Can you extract the original materials of the Manhattan texture package from Minnu Palen's skin? It remains the key question. Signed up at Renderosity, poked around their forums and their website, and they don't give any better definition of "original materials" then the brief example in the license.

Perhaps drifting a bit, this strikes me as being exactly the same as the license terms of a place like ArtToday (err, Clipart.com these days) or Dover's series of clipart books, and I'm a little more familiar with those than I am with Renderosity. Their licenses are aimed at stopping people from taking the royalty-free materials they license and creating a competing resource.

I can't help but think that Renderosity's license seems primarily concerned with preventing buyers from turning around and competing with the sellers using their own products. Which may not be entirely within the scope of what the Marketplace sellers want or deserve.

sezmra,

I don't know that this is relevant. A photoreal rendering can still be photosourced, surely? If someone photosources from a photoreal rendering using the Manhattan texture package, is _that_ extracting "original materials"?

**Io Zeno** · 05-08-2008, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Vogel

Tell me honestly...how many male skin makers are sitting there drawing the abs and serratus muscles ripple by ripple and not using some photosource? Come on...

Human anatomy is difficult stuff. Everyone uses a reference, and like someone pointed, there would be no copy paste solution to port a skin like this from a 3D app to SL, someone has to sit down and do it piece by piece, deal with seams, mesh distortions etc... so it's not an effortless rip and sell.

As for proving the break of TOS of the original skin in court, good luck with that.

A lawyer costs $2000 a day to hire for cases like this. How much is the artist planning to get from the court exactly to make up for all the cost of preparing for this trial?

When shit like this happens, you're pretty much screwed. Sorry to say it but you are. There's still a builder in SL, still selling ripped versions of my furniture -- copied prim by prim and re-textured. There was no stopping her, and her shame failed, and at the time I was given the answer I am delivering to you today.

I guess we shall see in the coming weeks.

Troy you are just using brushes and burning and dodging and then blending over and over to get those effects in say photoshop. And you can use photographs for reference under the skin layer but it's not the same as pasting a photo.

My first skins were hand drawn. I could see how she did it. It's a lot of work but all you need to do is google for some tutorials to see how it is done.

Siyu Suen · 05-08-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Vogel

A lawyer costs $2000 a day to hire for cases like this. How much is the artist planning to get from the court exactly to make up for all the cost of preparing for this trial?

Possibly anywhere from 70k USD to 120k USD, as Minnu has been considered top of the market for almost a year and I have no doubt that the sort of money she's been raking in makes it well worth Danae's time.

Wildefire Walcott · 05-08-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cristiano

Well, as nice as those images are - those are renders, they are not real time images. That makes a huge difference. I am no apologist for SL by any means, but the comparisons of the images to SL, or even the avatar meshes versus Victoria 4 (with a gazillion polygons) isn't a fair comparison.

Oh I know, I know. A Victoria model is a Porsche that you leave in a showroom, and an SL avatar is an AMC Gremlin with a rusted-out floor that you use to tool around the grid.

But still.

**Vivianne Draper** · 05-08-2008, 06:20 PM

Well I think a lot of the problem here is not the fact of the theft itself. She may or may not have stolen the textures and I guess Danae, her lawyers, and Minnu will sort that out.

Its that Minnu has:

a) been a strident and vocal opponent of any content theft. Her notecards that now accompany her skins say that any one who copies the skin or makes anything like her skin is in violation. Not true of course but leaves a sour taste in one's mouth.

b) has now copied other people, in using the textures and in copying real life designs.

c) if Danae did come into SL and make skins based on her own textures, I'd imagine they'd look a lot like Minnus. So who owns it now? If Danae does not put up a fight now, I think she might loose the right to later.

So there are damn good reasons for Danae to create a fuss.

For myself, I have to say that Minnu left a bad taste when she went on a tear about content theft and pretended like she was going to leave and give up her 3-6K+ a month in income. Please. Cry me a fucking river.

Siyu Suen · 05-08-2008, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wildefire Walcott

Oh I know, I know. A Victoria model is a Porsche that you leave in a showroom, and an SL avatar is an AMC Gremlin with a rusted-out floor that you use to tool around the grid.

But still.

I like to see it as an old 240 Volvo personally

Troy Vogel · 05-08-2008, 06:24 PM

OK OK... I am bowing out of my role of playing devil's advocate...

*bow out*

:-)

Ran Garrigus · 05-08-2008, 06:28 PM

Vivianne,

I can certainly think of a number of things concerning Minnu that I consider dodgy or ill-considered. There's a lot of hype there that she and her cohorts have personally pushed.

That said, one can be completely opposed to content theft _and_ be well within one's rights to use copyrighted material in legally allowed ways (fair use, uses in accordance with a license, and so on).

Minnu may well have made overly broad claims as to what she would consider illegal copying of her work, I don't know. The claim that you can't make anything "similar" is nothing I'd heard of before, and is just wrong if true. Oh well.

But it seems to really be confusing the issue, to say that if she protests content theft but does copy some things in ways that may actually be perfectly legal (as you say, courts may need to decide), that there's something hypocritical there.

Wildefire Walcott · 05-08-2008, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoyoteMomiji

(cough cough cough lilybeth cough hack wheeze)

That's a shame if true. She's got one of the coolest names in SL.

**Io Zeno** · 05-08-2008, 06:39 PM

Just fyi. Note the first lines.

Quote:

The Artist (Author) retains all copyrights to the enclosed materials. The Buyer is not purchasing the contents, only the right to use the contents. The Buyer may not redistribute this archive file, in whole or in part. The Buyer may not store it any place on a network or on the Internet where it may be referenced by a third party. Buyer acquires the copyright to any derivative works created using this work, provided none of the original materials can be extracted from the derivative work by any means. If Artist can show that any of the original material can be extracted from Buyer's derivative work, Artist can demand both the original and derivative work, and all copies thereof be deleted. For example, Buyer cannot make an image of a texture map mapped to a flat plane, such that the original texture map can be cut & pasted from the image. This is designed to protect the Artist from Buyers releasing work, which lets other users obtain the copyrighted material, and is not meant to infringe upon the artistic endeavors of the Buyer. Buyer may not make any MetaStream animation files with the enclosed materials, until this format can protect the original materials from being extracted. Items sold at Renderosity may not be used for illegal purposes.

Now, I really can't see how taking off a mole is making a derivative work. And we all know that skins can indeed be "extracted" from SL very easily.

Ran Garrigus · 05-08-2008, 06:52 PM

That's hardly the only change involved in bringing it to the SL platform, Io. I did mention some others.

But in the end, derivative works are allowed, and while you may extract a derivative work via SL, does that constitute extracting the original material?

I cannot find a definition of original materials on Renderosity's site. I don't know if it's a term of art, a legal term, or whatever.

Charlemagne Allen · 05-08-2008, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vivianne Draper

Some established skin places for you to check out. This is by no means a comprehensive list -- this is only the places I like the skins from.

Nomine
Skins by Max
Gala Phoenix (i forget the name of her shop -- just check out her profile and her shop will be there)
Celestial uh... Starley Therian's shop. Check her profile.
Chai Skins by Launa Fauna
Sin Skins by Portia (I forget her last name right now but she posts here)
Nora Skins by Sezmra
Pixel Dolls has all kinds of good skins and they are differnet. Like there are normal skins in their body shop but if you go to their Japanese Island you can get Japanese and Anime skins.
Nevermore's skins are good - but for some reason they never clicked with me. But they are good and you should check them out.
Both Curious Kitties and Deviant Kitties have decent skins. I tend to buy these as specialty skins.
TaP skins are good -- they don't look good on me but they are good skins.
I've heard good things about RAC. I just never have been there.
Tulli Asturias makes awesome skins. She's kind of new to the skin market but has been a content creator in SL for a long time.

These shops/people have been in SL for YEARS. Most since 05 and many before. I think Munch and Starley are charter members. Their skins have gone through so many evolutions and no one has ever accused them of theft. I think Minnu has been in SL less than a year.

My previous skin was Nora. Very nice for more natural-looking avs.

Troy Vogel · 05-08-2008, 07:18 PM

ok I am going to say this. I was holding back but let me say this.

If we all agreed all the time, this would not be a forum, it would be a RSS feed from 1984. So I hope my disagreement is not taken personally. And shouldn't be.

I just think that threads like this create a venue for anyone and everyone that does not like a particular vendor to vent off and do all sorts of blood letting.

Maybe this is good for us, maybe not so much. Can we have peace without drama? Or would we not recognize it as peace without the stark contrast of the drama?

I do not know. I just feel weird when someone gets dragged through the mud publicly like this.

I think I am still not over what happened to me more than 2 years ago. I did not deserve what happened to me and I felt that there was very little in terms of venues to clear my name. So I withdrew back to my land, and built my heart out and never bothered to fight that battle again. I let my work speak for itself. And I sure learned who my true friends are.

What am I saying? I am saying that the person accused should get a chance to defend themselves. Only then this is a forum and not a witch hunt and burning people at the stake like the spanish inquisition.

Just saying.....

Troy Vogel · 05-08-2008, 07:21 PM

One last point, I think it is unethical for other skin manufacturers to come here and say bad things about a competitor until things are official and a judgement has been pronounced by an objective party of legal authority.

It's just poor form, I won't have my friends, and buddies from SL make mistakes. Yes I am that kind of a friend. I will tell you when you're kind of sucking... :-) I dunno... Call me beatch but this is how I am, I will always tell you the truth as I see it, as I feel it, as best I know it.

You can take that to the bank :-) Okie Peeps?

**Io Zeno** · 05-08-2008, 07:30 PM

Honestly Troy, I understand how you feel. But this kinda became a public debate the moment the artist from Renderosity claimed her work was being wrongly used and that such use may be a legal issue. Then it kinda goes public and people can't help but play jury and look at the images and draw conclusions.

We may all be wrong but like I said, it's not like this is rank speculation based on nothing.

Siyu Suen · 05-08-2008, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Troy Vogel

ok I am going to say this. I was holding back but let me say this.

If we all agreed all the time, this would not be a forum, it would be a RSS feed from 1984. So I hope my disagreement is not taken personally. And shouldn't be.

I just think that threads like this create a venue for anyone and everyone that does not like a particular vendor to vent off and do all sorts of blood letting.

Maybe this is good for us, maybe not so much. Can we have peace without drama? Or would we not recognize it as peace without the stark contrast of the drama?

I do not know. I just feel weird when someone gets dragged through the mud publicly like this.

I think I am still not over what happened to me more than 2 years ago. I did not deserve what happened to me and I felt that there was very little in terms of venues to clear my name. So I withdrew back to my land, and built my heart out and never bothered to fight that battle again. I let my work speak for itself. And I sure learned who my true friends are.

What am I saying? I am saying that the person accused should get a chance to defend themselves. Only then this is a forum and not a witch hunt and burning people at the stake like the spanish inquisition.

Just saying.....

I think you might be holding that opinion because you don't perceive a likeness. To you, it does seem like everyone is against the one person, out of nowhere, holding a grudge based on flimsy, unsubstantiated evidence. That's completely understandable, that's how this thread could certainly be seen.

I don't think there's any debate that thievery = bad, that's for sure. Thing is, everyone isn't ganging up on Minnu in particular, but we have suddenly had some evidence come to light that convinced the majority of the people in this thread that Minnu is a thief. It's not so much as holding a grudge, as changing our perceptions about a person who was respected and considered an original artist and creator. I know I at least see the pictures and the Renderousity artist's statement as utterly damning of her, and so rather than having simply joined the bandwagon, saying "oh yeah, I've always hated Minnu!" I've come to my own conclusions based on the evidence provided.

05-08-2008, 06:15 PM	#235 (permalink)
Ran Garrigus Weirdo in a Weird Land Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 410	I'm looking at the license again, and it doesn't say you can't resell the texture. Not in those words. It says you can't sell derivative works where the original materials can be extracted. Can you extract the original materials of the Manhattan texture package from Minnu Palen's skin? It remains the key question. Signed up at Renderosity, poked around their forums and their website, and they don't give any better definition of "original materials" then the brief example in the license. Perhaps drifting a bit, this strikes me as being exactly the same as the license terms of a place like ArtToday (err, Clipart.com these days) or Dover's series of clipart books, and I'm a little more familiar with those than I am with Renderosity. Their licenses are aimed at stopping people from taking the royalty-free materials they license and creating a competing resource. I can't help but think that Renderosity's license seems primarily concerned with preventing buyers from turning around and competing with the sellers using their own products. Which may not be entirely within the scope of what the Marketplace sellers want or deserve. sezmra, I don't know that this is relevant. A photoreal rendering can still be photosourced, surely? If someone photosources from a photoreal rendering using the Manhattan texture package, is _that_ extracting "original materials"? __________________ Old Fashioned -- Occasional SL fashion reviews.

05-08-2008, 06:20 PM	#239 (permalink)
Vivianne Draper witly verbiage hear SLU Supporter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: DC Area Posts: 4,489 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 2 SL Join Date: September 11, 2005 Blog Entries: 1	Well I think a lot of the problem here is not the fact of the theft itself. She may or may not have stolen the textures and I guess Danae, her lawyers, and Minnu will sort that out. Its that Minnu has: a) been a strident and vocal opponent of any content theft. Her notecards that now accompany her skins say that any one who copies the skin or makes anything like her skin is in violation. Not true of course but leaves a sour taste in one's mouth. b) has now copied other people, in using the textures and in copying real life designs. c) if Danae did come into SL and make skins based on her own textures, I'd imagine they'd look a lot like Minnus. So who owns it now? If Danae does not put up a fight now, I think she might loose the right to later. So there are damn good reasons for Danae to create a fuss. For myself, I have to say that Minnu left a bad taste when she went on a tear about content theft and pretended like she was going to leave and give up her 3-6K+ a month in income. Please. Cry me a fucking river. __________________ ~~~~~

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/10890-renderosity-com-second-life-theft.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date
Explore tags on Delicious	This thread	Refback	04-10-2009 02:30 PM
The Tenshi and Ingrid Porno Thread (language NSFW) - SecondSurvivor.com	This thread	Refback	05-12-2008 02:24 PM
Skin Piracy Scenario = Fashionista Hornet’s Nest « Common.Sensible	This thread	Pingback	05-12-2008 07:39 AM
2008 January « Shopping Cart Disco	This thread	Refback	05-12-2008 07:17 AM
What’s Your Persona Today? « Shopping Cart Disco	This thread	Refback	05-12-2008 05:01 AM
Axel! Axel! Axel! « Shopping Cart Disco	This thread	Refback	05-12-2008 02:00 AM
Minnu Model Skins - Ripped off? « Shopping Cart Disco	This thread	Refback	05-12-2008 01:41 AM

05-08-2008, 06:10 PM	#230 (permalink)
Troy Vogel Professor of ZOMG An Internet Telebrity... Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 1,204 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 3 SL Join Date: August 2004 Business: Mission Home Store: A Furniture and Prefab store in the Arts & Crafts Style	Tell me honestly...how many male skin makers are sitting there drawing the abs and serratus muscles ripple by ripple and not using some photosource? Come on... Human anatomy is difficult stuff. Everyone uses a reference, and like someone pointed, there would be no copy paste solution to port a skin like this from a 3D app to SL, someone has to sit down and do it piece by piece, deal with seams, mesh distortions etc... so it's not an effortless rip and sell. As for proving the break of TOS of the original skin in court, good luck with that. A lawyer costs $2000 a day to hire for cases like this. How much is the artist planning to get from the court exactly to make up for all the cost of preparing for this trial? When shit like this happens, you're pretty much screwed. Sorry to say it but you are. There's still a builder in SL, still selling ripped versions of my furniture -- copied prim by prim and re-textured. There was no stopping her, and her shame failed, and at the time I was given the answer I am delivering to you today. I guess we shall see in the coming weeks.

05-08-2008, 06:13 PM	#234 (permalink)
sezmra boosh! dweebalicious Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: TN, USA Posts: 227 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 1 SL Join Date: July, 2004 Business: sezmra.com	Photosource is from photographs. This was from a SKIN already made from photographs. Which is quite literally tons more work than just fitting it to another mesh. I do know that much. Big diff.

05-08-2008, 06:24 PM	#241 (permalink)
Troy Vogel Professor of ZOMG An Internet Telebrity... Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 1,204 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 3 SL Join Date: August 2004 Business: Mission Home Store: A Furniture and Prefab store in the Arts & Crafts Style	OK OK... I am bowing out of my role of playing devil's advocate... bow out :-)

05-08-2008, 06:28 PM	#242 (permalink)
Ran Garrigus Weirdo in a Weird Land Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 410	Vivianne, I can certainly think of a number of things concerning Minnu that I consider dodgy or ill-considered. There's a lot of hype there that she and her cohorts have personally pushed. That said, one can be completely opposed to content theft _and_ be well within one's rights to use copyrighted material in legally allowed ways (fair use, uses in accordance with a license, and so on). Minnu may well have made overly broad claims as to what she would consider illegal copying of her work, I don't know. The claim that you can't make anything "similar" is nothing I'd heard of before, and is just wrong if true. Oh well. But it seems to really be confusing the issue, to say that if she protests content theft but does copy some things in ways that may actually be perfectly legal (as you say, courts may need to decide), that there's something hypocritical there.

05-08-2008, 06:52 PM	#245 (permalink)
Ran Garrigus Weirdo in a Weird Land Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Sweden Posts: 410	That's hardly the only change involved in bringing it to the SL platform, Io. I did mention some others. But in the end, derivative works are allowed, and while you may extract a derivative work via SL, does that constitute extracting the original material? I cannot find a definition of original materials on Renderosity's site. I don't know if it's a term of art, a legal term, or whatever.

05-08-2008, 07:18 PM	#247 (permalink)
Troy Vogel Professor of ZOMG An Internet Telebrity... Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 1,204 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 3 SL Join Date: August 2004 Business: Mission Home Store: A Furniture and Prefab store in the Arts & Crafts Style	ok I am going to say this. I was holding back but let me say this. If we all agreed all the time, this would not be a forum, it would be a RSS feed from 1984. So I hope my disagreement is not taken personally. And shouldn't be. I just think that threads like this create a venue for anyone and everyone that does not like a particular vendor to vent off and do all sorts of blood letting. Maybe this is good for us, maybe not so much. Can we have peace without drama? Or would we not recognize it as peace without the stark contrast of the drama? I do not know. I just feel weird when someone gets dragged through the mud publicly like this. I think I am still not over what happened to me more than 2 years ago. I did not deserve what happened to me and I felt that there was very little in terms of venues to clear my name. So I withdrew back to my land, and built my heart out and never bothered to fight that battle again. I let my work speak for itself. And I sure learned who my true friends are. What am I saying? I am saying that the person accused should get a chance to defend themselves. Only then this is a forum and not a witch hunt and burning people at the stake like the spanish inquisition. Just saying.....

05-08-2008, 07:21 PM	#248 (permalink)
Troy Vogel Professor of ZOMG An Internet Telebrity... Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Austin Texas Posts: 1,204 My Mood: SLShopper Ads: 3 SL Join Date: August 2004 Business: Mission Home Store: A Furniture and Prefab store in the Arts & Crafts Style	One last point, I think it is unethical for other skin manufacturers to come here and say bad things about a competitor until things are official and a judgement has been pronounced by an objective party of legal authority. It's just poor form, I won't have my friends, and buddies from SL make mistakes. Yes I am that kind of a friend. I will tell you when you're kind of sucking... :-) I dunno... Call me beatch but this is how I am, I will always tell you the truth as I see it, as I feel it, as best I know it. You can take that to the bank :-) Okie Peeps?

05-08-2008, 07:30 PM	#249 (permalink)
Io Zeno Gone SLU Supporter Stoking the fires of Hell Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: New York City Posts: 17,021 My Mood: Blog Entries: 1 Awards: 1	Honestly Troy, I understand how you feel. But this kinda became a public debate the moment the artist from Renderosity claimed her work was being wrongly used and that such use may be a legal issue. Then it kinda goes public and people can't help but play jury and look at the images and draw conclusions. We may all be wrong but like I said, it's not like this is rank speculation based on nothing.

Logo

Site Navigation