SLUniverse Forums

juro

Cocoanut Koala

Triumph of scamming scum.

coco

Sooz Pascale

Oh, Flip!!! In all due respect, BULLSHIT!!! In my humble opinion, LL would have done nothing, ignored phone calls, e-mails, US Mail correspondence and just ignored him and burned him off. Filing a lawsuit was the ONLY way he could have achieved any redress. Flip, you know these people better than I do. I've never met a one of them, in world or in RL, but judging from their past behavior, their modus operandi is to basically ignore problems until they get so huge they are forced to deal with them. I see no reason why they would behave any differently over Bragg.

I have been predicting for along time that the case would most likely settle [the vast majority of civil cases do] and that the settlement would be confidential. I find no suprises there.

The language about both sides admitting to misunderstandings is not terribly unusual. For example, in my setlement agreements, I usually employ a phrase such as, "Without admitting any fault, but in order to avoid the uncertainties and expenses of litigation, all parties have agreed to the terms of this settlement and release of all claims as memorialized herein." No big deal here.

The case settled because BOTH sides had a lot to lose. Had it gone to trial, I believe Bragg would have lost. I also believe Bragg should have lost, had it gone to trial. Even had LL prevailed at trial, they would have been de facto if not de jure losers as well. The negative publicity would have done them no good. More importantly, the case was heading for some dangerous [to LL at least] precedents being set vis a vis' the TOS and some of their general practices, even had they prevailed on the merits.

In short, there was a huge amount of risk for both parties and expense. Deposing some of the investors andstaffmembers could have opened God knows how many cans of worms.

I, personally, would have never attempted to "game" the system as Bragg did. Even if I had, I would have never, ever wanted that particular bit of malfeasence to have been made public. Had LL been INTELLIGENT about this situation, they would have quietly told him, "We'll keep the land you gamed on the auction exploit, and we'll refund to you all the Lindens in your account and auction off your pre existing land at auction. Then we will cancel your account. They had a choice of taking the simple, quick, intelligent direct path to intelligence or hitting the stupidity interstate at 80 miles per hour. They chose the latter.

IF, and I truly hope this never happens, LL freezes my account and/or assets I would spend a little time trying to get their attention and resolving the matter informally. However, once my head butted against the concrete wall of corporate idiocy I would fly or drive to SF, file a summons and complaint and serve their asses so fast their heads would be spinning like Linda Blair's. I'm a VERY experienced California trial lawyer and I would have a high degree of confidence in my abilities to deal with the problem in the court room.

I'm a moral person and play by the rules, so I doubt if they would ever have any reason to close my account unless pointed and barbed criticism of their business methods suddenly becomes a TOS violation.

I am also glad it settled. Bragg would have made a very, very poor "poster child" for LL customers. Relax, folks, the show isn't over. Sooner or later they WILL pick the wrong person to "f" over and that one WILL make for some real entertainment.

Sooz

__________________
5.5 on the highly scientific Troutometer scale.

Joshua Nightshade

Thanks Sooz, very eloquently put and I agree with you more or less.

FlipperPA Peregrine

I can only go from my experience - I received a refund for an overcharge from Linden Lab once. Schwanson Schlegel and many others have as well (there was a pretty big problem with billing errors in 2004/2005 that sometimes continues to this day). People manage to get their money back, without suing. It just didn't happen overnight, it took a week or so. They certainly didn't ignore any of us when it happened.

What you're indicating is that Linden Lab intentionally was doing something evil. I don't think they're evil or do intentionally shady things. They're very reasonable people and I believe they would have given Bragg his money back if his instant knee-jerk reaction hadn't been to sue them.

Regards,

-Flip

__________________
Peregrine Salon: Flip & Jenn's thang.

Joshua Nightshade

Flip you can't draw a comparison; you didn't get banned first and ask for your money back.

I know W-hat never received compensation at all when their island was taken from them. I had two of my alts with about four hundred USD in it disabled for two weeks and I didn't get them back until I had pestered everyone I knew with any clout. I know Allana's husband has been repeatedly overcharged for his island and LL has banned him for not paying before correcting the mistake.

In all of these instances we were ignored until we repeatedly raised hell. Well except for W-hat, they didn't even bother when they got hung up on any time they called support. That's a completely appropriate way to handle it.

Sooz Pascale

Flip, I like and respect you but I disagree with you on this. You're a bit of a celebrity and you actually know some of these people. I believe they would treat you differently than they would the average customer. I believe, firmly, that if I had a problem with them, that I would basically be ignored until the lawsuit hit the desk of their agent for service of process. Hopefully, we will never know who is right on this.

Further, I don't think at all that they were intentionally doing something evil. I think they were being stupid, a behavior for which their reputation is growing by leaps and bounds almost daily.


Sooz

FlipperPA Peregrine

I'll agree to disagree on this one. There is a difference between honesty levels and competency levels.

Envoy Costagravas

Would you agree that you, personally, probably get treated differently than the average Joe/Jane SL resident?

__________________
"If you wou'd not be forgotten as soon as you are dead and rotten,
either write things worth reading, or do things worth the writing."
~ Benjamin Franklin

Cindy Claveau

I'll take "How to dress a pig to justify your scummy ethics" for 500, Alex.

Sooz Pascale

Exactly!! very well put. As much as I would enjoy LL getting completly thrashed over their highhanded arrogance and general corporate imbecility, this was the wrong case.

My contempt for Bragg's scumball practices is far lower than my irritation and annoyance at LL's general imcompetence.

I can TOLERATE incompetence. I won't tolerate thievery.

Sooz

Joshua Nightshade

Well the only reason he was able to steal anything in the first place was because they were so incompetent they didn't plug the loophole that allowed any genius to figure out, "Hey, if http://secondlifeauction.com/auction1.html is a link, I wonder if auction2.html will work too!"

l33t hax0rs.

Joshua Nightshade

Oh and here's another point re: LL not doing anything until an issue escalates.

They were told about the exploit repeatedly and didn't fix it until people started passing around how to use it. They could have fixed this, they were aware of it, and they didn't until it escalated.

Lots of bugs are like that btw. Even Cris told LL of a big exploit that they didn't patch until he posted it on SLU, which got him temporarily suspended.

Sooz Pascale

The entire mess could have been easily prevented by: (A) Bragg behaving in an honest and ethical manner; OR (B) LL behaving in an intelligent manner. Neither chose to do so.

Sooz

FlipperPA Peregrine

Yes, I'm sure that's true. I'm not the only one who's been successful in getting good support in the past, or refunds when due, however. Many people have.

Aodhan, for example, cites that he's received excellent, timely support each time he's tried except once.

Regards,

-Flip

Envoy Costagravas

To be clear, Flip, I didn't mean to imply that only you would have gotten that kind of treatment. But I do have a tendency to believe, after being around for only a year, that like any organization, certain parts of the community get treated differently than others. It is just human, and organizational, nature. And it doesn't surprise me that others, at the other end, get less spectacular service.

Sooz Pascale

Thankfully, I've never had a major problem with LL personally. I hope I never do. I DO have friends who have had absolute nightmarish problems and have been unable to get ANY LL attention without a LOT of string pulling. I do not believe they are isolated examples. Most of these people are at concierge level also, which is truly frightening.

Sooz

Persephone Milk

I have had pretty good luck with Linden Lab when I have had problems, but I have also heard the horror stories. I think its a mixed bag because they are so understaffed. I agree with Flip that there isn't anything intentionally evil at play here, but also with Sooz that it's really a matter of incompetence.

By incompetence, I don't mean that they lack the intelligence or desire to do the right thing. I just think they have a fraction of the resources they need to be responsive, and to build systems and processes that treat people more fairly. As the user base grows, the resources get stretched even thinner. There was once a time when you could IM Philip, or a Linden friend, and the response was almost immediate. Those days are long gone, and they will never be back.

Linden Lab must be continuously barraged with requests for assistance. Some of these requests are serious and legitimate and should be addressed immediately. But how do you separate these from the cacophony of so many more that are completely unreasonable, not well articulated, or beyond the scope of what LL can even help with? I once began the process of applying for a job at Linden Lab. But once the recruiter went over the job description (program manager I think) and what the pay was ... I thought ... um, thanks but no thanks.

I am not trying to make excuses for Linden Lab. Believe me, I wanted to kill them when my island kept going down, and when my classified ad kept disappearing, and when my inventory completely vanished ... but in all honesty, I think they do manage to do a lot of really cool things with very few people and resources.

Oh and yes, I have been accused of being Linden before. I have also been accused of being Anshe's alt. I am not sure which is worse ... but I am pretty sure I know which pays better!

FlipperPA Peregrine

I once had a Linden IM me, tell me who her original non-Linden avatar was, and ask which Linden I was. She wouldn't believe me when I told her I wasn't a Linden!

william Fish

the new TOS says you dont have to fly to SF anymore and serve papers. They can be done by pretty much any means. That judge said the old way, travel down to SF, was unjust.

.....

Ummmm... with all do respect, Marc Braggs had NOTHING to lose, he already lost it all! LL had ALOT to lose either way as mentioned by someone else earlier in this thread. PLus with the big names that were going to be witnesses for the plantiff were huge names. I dont quite understand why they were going to be a witness and what they would of said (we may never no) but none the less a witness for the plantiff and not the defendant. (yeah ok my spelling sucks. i just woke up)

Just because Marc and LL settled doesnt exactly mean that Marc had something to lose and had to settle. It could mean that he liked what they had to offer and was 'OK' with the offer. After all he was mainly trying to get his thousands of lost dollars back. Secondly, he wanted to bring to real world light how SL was being used as a gambling venu and how europe players were not getting VAT.

Pretty much IMHO all the recent new changes had ALOT to do with MARC VS LL case as all of a sudden LL was in the real world spot light of the law as marc wanted to make that happen as well.

It all makes sense now, the FBI snooping, the gambling ban, the VAT being used....

Joshua Nightshade

Meh this guy wasn't the reason for the FBI, the gambling ban or VAT. It was a matter of time as LL got more well-known.

And LL invited the FBI to look into gambling in SL. Long before Bragg, I believe.

william Fish

so agree with this!

william Fish