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Old 05-31-2015, 02:34 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Dear Mesh Content Creators: Please stop making your content on Firestorm.

Because it causes you to make mesh content that LOD's horribly, even on Ultra graphics, on everything except Firestorm Viewer.

You may not be aware of this, but Firestorm changed the "Object Detail" slider away from default behavoir. Putting the slider all the way up on official viewer results in a object detail value of "2", but on Firestorm, it's "4" (with many people even going into debug and making it even higher.

The side effect is if you are a mesh creator, you will not realize how quickly your models fall to lower LOD's. I see so much content that LOD's so quickly with distance that it's unmistakable it must have been made on Firestorm viewer.

Pls stop.

(Alternatively, make sure object detail is no higher than 2, but hey, drama title.)
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Old 05-31-2015, 02:36 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Old 05-31-2015, 02:37 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I can't do that without bashing creators.

And I love the creators.
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Old 05-31-2015, 03:10 AM   #4 (permalink)
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where it is? not fs upload model window?
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Old 05-31-2015, 03:33 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Does setting RenderDynamicLOD to False help? There was a group notice sent from a creator last night concerning people not seeing his mesh planes correctly, apparently in Singularity it's set to False by default, but not in other viewers.

Quote:
You all know how much I like putting details in my creations. To do so I use very low figures in the LOD.
Since I am a singulartiy user myself I did not realise that this might cause problems in other viewers.
Partial quote from the notice, but he also offered setting that to False as a solution
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Old 05-31-2015, 04:04 AM   #6 (permalink)
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is this what you mean, adeon:

firestorm creators have viewer set to hi lod so when making things they see lod different to other users, they see better detail than others, so when others buy the thing it looks bad to them?

because I cannot see "Object Detail" slider anywhere in fs, only lod sliders in preferences/graphics.
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Old 05-31-2015, 04:24 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Okay, I'll bite.


Because triangles are teh sexy.

Not mentioning creators, although they are major ones and would be recognized by those who have bought from them before. The degree to which these items LOD down is normally not this severe, but camming around and then camming back to my av is usually enough to trigger a drop all the way down to the lowest LOD.

Also, not running Firestorm regularly myself, I can't say for certain that these individuals do or do not use Firestorm while creating, but it DOES seem like their stuff LODs very poorly, very easily. Even if the mesh does not LOD all the way down as pictured, often the next LOD down is an ugly texture smear that sometimes doesn't pop back to the best detail until selected.
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Dear Mesh Content Creators: Please stop making your content on Firestorm.-notthenewblack_001.jpg  
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Old 05-31-2015, 04:32 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I'll note here that the above snapshot is indicative of the norm, rather than the exception.

My kingdom for hair and clothing with both quality lowpoly top level modelling AND solid LODs that weren't either a) generated by the uploader b) generated by an over-zealous decimation filter.
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Old 05-31-2015, 04:58 AM   #9 (permalink)
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I cant decide if I blame creators or viewer coders for this.

I encountered the problem when I was using Singularity for some reason. So I ramped the LOD detail up from 2 to 4 and carried on. I never noticed any performance hit from doing this, even in crowded areas.......so whats the problem?

EDIT - What I am asking is why is 1 considered "right" and the above considered a false solution?

Last edited by Issa Heckroth; 05-31-2015 at 05:28 AM.
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:03 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issa Heckroth View Post
I cant decide if I blame creators or viewer coders for this.

I encountered the problem when I was using Singularity for some reason. So I ramped the LOD detail up from 2 to 4 and carried on. I never noticed any performance hit from doing this, even in crowded areas.......so whats the problem?
The problem is not everyone has the same hardware as you do, and when people start designing for an artificially raised bar and treat it as standard, people who can't handle the higher setting will suffer.

Moreover, allowing TPVs to set standards rather than the other way around sets a poor precedent. There are already rendering inconsistencies where materials are concerned. If it's true that many TPVs are also artificially raising the RenderVolLOD setting, that's also going to contribute to complaints about mesh being laggy (which it shouldn't be, compared to other content like prims or sculpts).
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:15 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aki Shichiroji View Post
The problem is not everyone has the same hardware as you do
I understand that. But what I dont understand is why one is considered "right" above the other. Why do people have to design to the lowest common denominator?

I have even seen some merchants mention in the listing by saying something like "best viewed with firestorm" or mention the RenderVolLOD thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aki Shichiroji View Post
If it's true that many TPVs are also artificially raising the RenderVolLOD setting, that's also going to contribute to complaints about mesh being laggy.
It is definitely true that Firestorm, which is the most popular viewer has a default setting of 2. Singularity is 1. Cant speak for the others as I never used them.

As Firestorm is the most popular viewer, it makes sense to me that most creators will work with that.

Last edited by Issa Heckroth; 05-31-2015 at 05:23 AM. Reason: got my numbers wrong. Updated
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:19 AM   #12 (permalink)
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I use Sing to work in but usually test and upload using SL viewer

Out of curiosity I checked the defaults and got:

(checked under ultra, view managed MP version
Second Life 3.7.28 (300920) Apr 15 2015 08:00:41 (Second Life Project Managed Marketplace))

RenderDynamicLOD is TRUE by default

rendervolumeLODFactor is 1.0 by default (which is Mid on slider)
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Old 05-31-2015, 05:58 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Issa Heckroth View Post
I cant decide if I blame creators or viewer coders for this.
That's not under question, it's clearly the Firestorm dev's not-so-well thought out idea of improving SL's look by bumping up the object LOD factor.
People using Firestorm as their main viewer and nothing else would have absolutely no idea that the LOD values were tweeked with.
The result I'm sure was not intended, but it is nevertheless very benificial to Firestorm, since it looks like they're rendering things right where other viewers "glitch out".

This leads to content and builds that have very little care taken to how quickly things drop LOD with distance unless you yourself want to pump up your debug setting to Firestorm levels to see it how FS users do.
And that's bad because that means objects all around will stick at their highest LOD, which will drop your framerate.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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This problem has been there since early in the sculptie era.
Less talented (or lazy) sculptie makers sent a notecard with their creations, advising the end user to set their RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4 in debug settings. This was long before Firestorm had its own sliders for this. Actually, it was long before firestorm existed.

This practise still goes on.
Meshmakers who don't know how to optimise their meshes and make good LOD models, are too lazy to check their meshes on lower LOD settings or who simply are so obsessed with low LI that they collapse at least the two lowest LODs usually advise their customers to crank their LOD settings up.

Firestorm isn't to blame unless it has some hidden code that destroys mesh LOD on upload.

Blame the creators.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:09 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reven Rosca View Post
This problem has been there since early in the sculptie era.
Less talented (or lazy) sculptie makers sent a notecard with their creations, advising the end user to set their RenderVolumeLODFactor to 4 in debug settings. This was long before Firestorm had its own sliders for this. Actually, it was long before firestorm existed.

This practise still goes on.
Meshmakers who don't know how to optimise their meshes and make good LOD models, are too lazy to check their meshes on lower LOD settings or who simply are so obsessed with low LI that they collapse at least the two lowest LODs usually advise their customers to crank their LOD settings up.

Firestorm isn't to blame unless it has some hidden code that destroys mesh LOD on upload.

Blame the creators.
I'm certain there are more creators inadvertently creating bad LOD meshes because they don't know what FS is doing, than there are people intentionally making meshes knowing they will only display properly on debug/firestorm-boosted LOD settings.

I just had to argue with someone that their mesh HAD bad LOD, and that no, it wasn't a "glitch that only Firestorm had fixed".

This line of thinking is common.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:15 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I've only dabbled at a very low level with mesh creation, and I am sure that I have only a low level of understanding about the difficulties.

However, I am a keen buyer of mesh items for furniture and avatar enhancement, and I have been amazed by the differences in how quickly LOD goes down to "object disappears". I bought some lovely furniture from a designer I like, but the chairs I bought vanish at about 2 metres! Cross the room, and they've vanished before you are halfway across.

I've noticed that things can get very laggy around mesh-heavy builds, which is the opposite of expected behaviour, it should be more efficient, not less. Sometimes I believe this is due to the number and size of textures in a small area, but I do wonder if an area with a lot of mesh models constantly popping in and out is also responsible?

Feel free to throw things and tell me I'm stupid lol. Incidentally I generally use Firestorm, but some furniture hardly stays in sight unless you're actually sitting on it. Others are still visible when you bump into the other edge of a sim.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:22 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I'm certain there are more creators inadvertently creating bad LOD meshes because they don't know what FS is doing, than there are people intentionally making meshes knowing they will only display properly on debug/firestorm-boosted LOD settings.
I'm certain that there are _some_ who don't know what they are doing, but I doubt they are the majority.

SL users have become obsessed with low land impact since mesh was introduced, and this is a driving force for creators. You have to offer what your customers demand if you want to sell. I'm afraid it's as simple as that.

One very recent example:
A customer needed picture frames with realistic details, so I made a set.
The square and rectangular frames came out of the uploader with LI 1 at the sizes they most probably will be given in the end, while the round and octagonal ones came out with LI 1 to 2 at the same sizes.

Result: IMs from customers who are concerned that they won't be able to sell the round and octagonal frames because of _high_ land impact.

I could have made them all LI 0.5, but I most definitely want the end user to be able to _see_ their picture framed on the wall from across the room.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:28 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reven Rosca View Post
I'm certain that there are _some_ who don't know what they are doing, but I doubt they are the majority.

SL users have become obsessed with low land impact since mesh was introduced, and this is a driving force for creators. You have to offer what your customers demand if you want to sell. I'm afraid it's as simple as that.

One very recent example:
A customer needed picture frames with realistic details, so I made a set.
The square and rectangular frames came out of the uploader with LI 1 at the sizes they most probably will be given in the end, while the round and octagonal ones came out with LI 1 to 2 at the same sizes.

Result: IMs from customers who are concerned that they won't be able to sell the round and octagonal frames because of _high_ land impact.

I could have made them all LI 0.5, but I most definitely want the end user to be able to _see_ their picture framed on the wall from across the room.
You make a good point, but it still doesn't explain why it's so prevelent on content intended to be worn, where LI has no bearing. I now have four different avatars I'd have loved to use but I know only FS users will see it as anything more than a ball of glitch. In three of the four cases after informing the creator they told me they had no idea. The fourth I just IM'd and is why I made this thread.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:28 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caliandris View Post
Feel free to throw things and tell me I'm stupid lol. Incidentally I generally use Firestorm, but some furniture hardly stays in sight unless you're actually sitting on it. Others are still visible when you bump into the other edge of a sim.
You are not stupid!

The meshes that disappear too soon are uploaded without proper LOD models, and most probably with the upload settings minimised on two or three LOD levels.

The ones that are visible across the sim either have too heavy LOD models (if you see details from far away), or they are simply made in an efficient way. The lowest LOD can most often be a solid box, which keeps the item visible as long as it's possible to see it from your position.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:38 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Adeon Writer View Post
You make a good point, but it still doesn't explain why it's so prevelent on content intended to be worn, where LI has no bearing.

I now have four different avatars I'd have loved to use but I know only FS users will see it as anything more than a ball of glitch.
Ouch. That's too bad!

There might be another explanation when it comes to attachments.

Worn attachments are most often seen at the medium LOD level.
I uploaded my first pair of shoes yesterday (nope, not pretty yet), and I was unable to upload them with low LODs that actually resembled a shoe without a land impact around 30 per unrigged shoe.

Since I make full perm meshes, I should probably take LI into account to some extent, since my customers will need to rez the shoes/ clothes to be able to create the final items.

So.. What to do?
Which LOD levels should I focus on when making wearables?
I ask because I'm a n00b in that area, and simply have no idea whatsoever.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:40 AM   #21 (permalink)
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I've only ever used the LL viewer for uploads, and almost always with defining each LOD because sometimes the generated LODs are awful.

I just could never get FS to upload nicely, though that was a couple of years back.

This reminds me of the issue some sculpties had... they weren't checked.
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:45 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I'd take this a step further:

Customers should never buy any Mesh item while running Firestorm.

Not at the default, inflated LOD settings, anyway.

I've made that mistake myself, used my new purchases for landscaping, decoration, or to add to an outfit, then switched to a viewer with normal LoD settings. Oops! That was a waste of some L$s and a whole lot of time!
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Old 05-31-2015, 06:55 AM   #23 (permalink)
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I'd take this a step further:

Customers should never buy any Mesh item while running Firestorm.

Not at the default, inflated LOD settings, anyway.
And another step:
Customers should always turn their LOD settings down, preferably also in wireframe mode, before buying any Mesh item.

(Quite a few very popular creators would have to change their practises or close their stores if all customers did this.)
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Old 05-31-2015, 07:10 AM   #24 (permalink)
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I think another major issue that plays into this is that the PE/LE system is pretty borked, as Reven's posts about shoes illustrates.

Coupled with the demand for super-low impact stuff it has created a tenancy for people to use super-high detail textures (which def cause lag, go to any sim and see which loads first. Textures or meshes. Usually textures take MUCH longer) and for people to skip LOD stages so they can pile polygons into the 1st and 2nd stages. Leading to things disappearing when your not really close to them.

Last edited by Issa Heckroth; 05-31-2015 at 07:16 AM.
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Old 05-31-2015, 07:13 AM   #25 (permalink)
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And I agree the auto generated LOD stages are usually an absolute travesty. Would probably be best if the uploader didnt offer this option.
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