Rema Quandry

I have long been puzzled over people thrashing with the "ethics" of eating meat . . . and I've been puzzled about those who go fanatically vegetarian.

Humans are omnivores. For centuries, we've hunted meat as well as farmed to keep ourselves fed.

Why, in modern times, has it suddenly become so fashionable to advocate a meatless approach to living?

Ethics? What ethics? At this rate, if the research were to show that plants feel pain when they're cut down . . . would people stop eating them too? What about fish? Do they feel pain?

I'm like a few others here: I know what it's like to not eat well or not at all. There's no question in my mind that my healthy survival depends upon a balanced diet . . . which--for the sake of the "ethically" minded--spreads the pain between animals . . . and plants (just in case they feel pain too).

--- Rema

io Kukulcan

I'm an omnivore.
I do feel disgusted though with factory farms, and so if I do go buy a steak or pork chops, I go to the hippie grocery store, like Whole Foods, and get meat there.
That way I know the animals were killed kindly by gentle hippies, and my guilt is less.

But seriously, when feelings of guilt pass over me and through me due to something I'm doing in life, I tend to get all Buddhist/Geologist.
This is all a dream, nothing is real, attachment is suffering/this steak won't matter in the 5 billion year history of earth.

Yeah, I've found the sciences of Geology and Astronomy to be the great humblers, and great guilt-sinks. Much like the heat-sinks that sit on your processor on your motherboard. You know, those metal pointy things, that draw heat away from the electronics.
Geology is just like that with guilt, all your guilt can easily be dispersed and dissipated into the vast scale of geologic time.
I ponder this, as I fill my gas tank, or order shrimp in a restaurant.

Arilynn

I think the answers are in your post. For centuries, our food production techniques were small scale and our food choices focused around trying to prevent starvation. For most of us, this does not reflect modern life.

But the modern large-scale farm with thousands of animals more resembles a factory than a traditional farm. It creates waste management problems on a large scale. It optimizes efficiency at the expense of animal welfare. It uses a variety of antibiotics to allow the animals to survive in such conditions and hormones to maximize return.

And most of us in the US do not eat the way we do out of sheer necessity. We aren't restricted to what we or our neighbors hunt or raise or much limited by the season. This allows us, if we want, the luxury of considering our food choices and opting to forgo items we find troubling. Veganism and vegetarianism certainly are not modern contrivances. But they are two options in long series of choices available.

Ann Launay

I was a vegetarian for a number of years in my teens and early 20s, mostly because I tend to like animals better than I do most people and felt bad about eating my friends. I eventually had to give it up though, because I was getting these intense meat cravings that wouldn't go away and only got worse over time...my body was basically demanding animal flesh. I still don't eat a lot of meat, and it's generally poultry when I do, but if I want a lamb chop or a nice rare steak, I'm going to have it.

I do still feel sort of bad about it though.

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Eirik

The fries aren't what I have a problem with. Fries have been sold in "frietkotten" or "frituren" over here as fast food for at least the past century or so.

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Carthalis

I'm often puzzled by fanatical meat eaters who seem to think going vegetarian is some kind of evil against human nature that should be corrected or that were idiots.

Humps is not vegetarian and we co-exist quite happily together, neither of us forces our opinions on each other, but mutually respects the decisions we've made.

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Har Fairweather

I'm puzzled by fanatics, period.

Surreal

This thread made me buy pork chops for dinner. The blood guilt is on YOUR heads!

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Argent Stonecutter

Just4yucks Miami

I have one friend and coworker who is a serious vegetarian - has been all the time I've known him, more than 24 years now. About 20 years ago we were travelling on business and we ate lunch at an Italian restaurant - a fairly upscale place.

My friend spent several minutes negotiating with the waiter to make sure that there would be no meat on his pasta. When our food came, there were large, clearly visible chunks of meat on his plate. He sent it back and it took at least 20-25 minutes for his vegetarian pasta to appear. We ended up late for an after-lunch meeting because of this nonsense.

BTW, this was in Berkeley, California, where you'd think vegetarians would be commonplace. I can't imagine what it must be like for vegetarians to eat out in less urban areas.

Personally I eat meat without guilt, although I will draw the line at disecting my own food. We have a quaint little custom here in Maryland called a "Crab Feast". I only ever ate at one of those - I prefer crabcakes now.

Attached Images

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derevaun

I won't go straight from "humans are carnivores and meat is delicious" (both are happy facts IMO) to giving up an ethical stance on meat. I try to avoid the worst of meat production by weeding out food that comes mainly from corn.

I think it's Michael Pollan who said that "you are what your food eats." Chickens aren't good at digesting mostly corn (or other seeds), neither are cows, pigs, deer, salmon, etc. What does corn eat? If it's not organic, its eats urea made from petroleum. That is not delicious, and it isn't something I feel like eating at every meal.

IMHO getting uptight about food ethics pays the most bang for the uptightness buck. It saves money, because it's a motivator to stay home and cook; and it's healthier. Long, healthy, uptight life for me, thanks.

Cincia Singh

I'm an omnivore; I grew up in a farming family and as Grandma used to say, "we eat everything but the squeal." Don't misunderstand, I adore veggies, and love fruit (I have berries, cherries and peaches in my yard). My Dad (a retired meat cutter/butcher) still gets our beef and pork from a friend of his who is still farming and he cuts it up and we (Mom and I) process it into steaks/roasts/burger and chops/roasts/sausage. Then Mom and I wrap it for the freezer. I think at the end of the day an "ethical stance on meat" or current farm production of grains is the convenient hobby of the well fed and wealthier and something our poorer neighbors on our planet wish they could afford.

**present company excepted.

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Surreal

I think the uptightness people are objecting to is that which is targeted at others in a smug, self-righteous manner rather than the kind you describe where one formulates ones ethics an acts accordingly.

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Arilynn

Fundamentally, I agree, although I don't see it as a "convenient hobby". But, yes, many of us in the US have the luxury of modifying our diets based on whatever philosophical, political, or whimsical stance we desire. I don't see this as a negative, however. We do a disproportionate amount of ecological harm to the planet, so it is not unreasonable or fanciful for individuals to try to minimize their contribution in some fashion.

Trout Recreant

One of the things Oryx and I are really trying to do is get a piece of property with some acreage so we can try to be a lot more self reliant. That would include growing our own meat, mainly chickens, rabbits and sheep - all of which have a lesser impact on the land than cows and pigs, and which can give other products, like wool and eggs prior to being slaughtered (rabbits, of course, give chocolate and Easter baskets). I have no qualms about killing what I eat, and we would know what the animals have been fed, and that they have had a happy life prior to being sent off to freezer camp. I don't have any issues with eating meat, but, like a lot of people, I do have issues with the way meat animals are raised, treated and fed. While they are alive, they are due a certain amount of respect.

Surreal

Heh... I want a little bit of acreage so if I'm old and homeless, I can at least have one stoop I can't be chased off of.

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Just4yucks Miami

I don't want acreage - no interest in farming here and I don't want to spend my retirement years mowing a huge lawn. I do want my own driveway and a 2 or 3 car garage. I've been living in apartments and townhomes since moving out of my parents' house and I am thoroughly sick of not having a set place to park my cars.

Until that glorious day I'd settle for neighbors who knew how to park between the lines and don't take up multiple spaces. That drives me nuts!

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Persephone Milk

It is actually our wealth that allows us to consume in excess of our need, to squander resources and impact our environment beyond our rightful share. The poorest people on earth cannot afford our decadent lifestyle. As nations become more wealthy, and more westernized, they tend to follow in our footsteps - they consume more, they waste more, and they pollute more. The Earth cannot sustain this indefinitely.

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Ingrid

If i knew animals destined for the kitchen table were treated humanely while alive put to death as humanely as possible, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But because I know that's hardly ever the case, I do. But I still eat it. I hate myself.

I always buy free run chicken though, and eggs from free run chickens. It''s more expensive but worth it to me.

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Ingrid

As humans we have the ability to rise above the brutality of nature, but we chose not to when it comes to the way animals destined for human consumption are most often treated.

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Chip Midnight

If I ever raise animals myself for my own consumption I'll be sure they have a fabulous life before I butcher them. Since I don't I have to say that I really don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about it.

io Kukulcan

I've fantasized about having a chicken coop and raising some chickens.
I know they're foul disgusting creatures, but they're so hilarious.
Roosters can be magnificent though.
I'd get too attached immediately and wouldn't be able to eat 'em, however.

Surreal

I guarantee your feelings would change after a few crack of dawn crowing sessions. All of a sudden a good fry up sounds delightful.

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Johnnie Carling

Unless you really want the sheep for wool (or want them just to have them), go for some dairy goats instead. At least for me meat + milk (butter, cheese, yogurt, etc..) is a better and more useful value than meat + wool.

Pig are really not that bad for the land when they are just part of a farm homestead and not some huge factory. A couple of pigs let lose in your garden will do a better job loosing up the soil than just about any power tool not to mention an older heritage breed such as a Tamworth tastes SOOOOO much better than a breed selected for just pure growth or litter size. Really the only problem with pigs is freezer camp time, they are a PAIN to deal with.

That goes for cows too... a cow is not really that bad for the land, the problem with cows is just the huge production you get from them. I want one BAD but there is no way I can use 8 gallons of milk a day. (and no way at all to sell the milk unless i want to invest tens of thousands of dollars in equipment) + the calf you get every year. (taking it to the auction barn is a money losing proposition most of the time.. large beef producer can afford to sell theirs for less that it cost for someone to just feed the critter)

BTW look for a book called "the have more plan" i think you will enjoy it

Oh back on topic...

Yes i eat critters with no problem what so ever

P.S. For all those that mentioned getting chickens... DO NOT let anyone talk you into getting a guinea hen. People think roosters are loud and annoying

Trout Recreant

Thanks, Johnnie!

I think we're definitely looking at getting a couple goats as well. We want the wool from the sheep, so we'll at least have a few, although we're also looking at a llama, so we could get it from there. We are both learning cheesemaking, so we want the milk from the goats and sheep. (The llama is not a food animal for us, though. I just want one. ) This is really a personal production operation, not any sort of money making venture.

I've raised chickens in the past, so I have a pretty good idea of what that entails, and I've gardened quite a bit, so we'll be set for veggies. Totally agree on Guinea hens. Peacocks are bad, too. The racket they make will turn you into Jack Nicholson in The Shining. The first chicken I ever slaughtered for food was a rooster. After about two weeks of it waking me up at 4:00 am, any qualms I had about eating it were gone.