Mocksoup Graves

Personally, I find extremely thin avatars alarming. But it's their SL, their imagination or whatever. I do not like that it perpetuates the Pro-ana/Pro-mia movement. I find it is irresponsible, and I will poke fun because it is easier for me to joke around than to have a harsh discourse on the horrible way that we as humans abuse ourselves for fashion.

I am sorry that Gracie's shapes and images are representative of what makes me uncomfortable. I wish that it wasn't that way.

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Miriel Enfield

You said that Grace -- and by extension, anyone else who uses skinny avs in their promo pics -- was no better than the RL fashion industry, which you've said plenty of awful things about. Eirik may have been your target, but he's not the only one you hit.

Yeah, I'm a big disappointment.

I think there's a difference, at least for this, between a photograph and a clearly fake avatar. (And honestly, I think that even in RL, images aren't the root of the problem. It's the attitudes of other people, encountered day after day, year after year. Take those away, and the pictures lose their power.)

Vivianne Draper

Well I think that's how many took it. I know when I first read her post I felt like.. "here goes yet another person wanting unrealistic body shapes. and now I have to contend with this nonsense in second life too"

Thats how I felt. I felt.... well the same way I feel when I see Katherine Zeta-Jones, a size 8, being celebrated for allowing herself to have 'curves.' sigh.

Some people in this thread have been mean with respect to Grace's requirements and even her clothes but really its just a few and, well, gee whiz its not like being mean has never happened before on SLU. When you put something out there like that, you'd have to have your head buried in the ground to not know it would be remarked upon. Grace's participation here, on plurk, and on various blogs says to me that she does not have her head in the ground.

As I've said before, I think she just didn't think about how her post would be perceived. And it *was* perceived as an insult by a great many people. Now you can sit here and say "well it wasn't an insult" or "it wasn't meant as an insult" or "people have too thin skins" or "it doesn't draw any parrallels to real life" but OBVIOUSLY, from the amount of people who had a problem with it, it is insulting and it does draw a parrallel for a great many people. That may not be Grace's fault, but I think she bears a huge amount of the responsibility for not thinking this through before posting. As do some of the posters here.

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Eirik

Dinner is ready, BBQ.

But I don't want to go yet. Duty beckons me to stay.

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Rhonda Huntress

Says the cookie cutter avatar ...

Cindy Claveau

The RL fashion industry is sick, and I don't think I'm alone in that assessment. They kill young girls - or at least permanently damage their health - all for the sake of pretty and unattainable images.

This could be the basis of a reasonable, non-confrontive discussion. I agree that the attitudes perpetrate the power, but what causes the attitudes? Modern society - and with it, modern attitudes - are influenced a great deal by media and media's images. And part of that media image is perpetrated by the fashion industry. We may be talking about Second Life, but I've always believed that SL was a reflection and enhancement of RL, mostly because of the way people utilize it and because of the imagery that appeals to us:

Anorexia & models « Love This!

So essentially the core of our disagreement seems to be how influential SL images and behavior are on RL. I'm not saying that SL *causes* anything (though it no doubt has more influence than you or Eirik wish to credence), but it IS a reflection of our realities - the same reality that does include unhealthy body images and a predatory, abusive fashion modelling industry. I object to the reflections just as vehemently as I've objected to the reality in the past, because I know what other mothers and models go through when they struggle with this.

Eirik

Too bad we don't have a WTF button, because I'm still trying to figure out what caused this braindead post.

Why don't you go copulate with a rusty cookie cutter?

Eirik

And for the record, I agree entirely with this assessment.

Vivianne Draper

cause when yer all rusty like that parts fall off when you copulate.

Miriel Enfield

My objection was that you all but accused Grace and others like her of killing young women. That was the only reason I jumped in.

And frankly, fuck that. I know I'm retiring, and I don't use overly skinny models in the first place, but I'm nobody's keeper, and will not be told what I can and cannot photograph.

Rhonda Huntress

Because I do not like listening to your mother's shrieking voice.

Eirik

Damn that bitch and her shrieking voice

Miriel Enfield

On a slightly less controversial note, I think this thread is a good example of the old adage that you have to know the rules before you break them. I've got no issue with people making stylized avatars, but it's best to have a solid grasp of human proportions before you go distorting them.

Rosie Barthelmess

Okay look.

First of all I just have to say that anyone who thinks Eirik's avatar is a cookie cutter avatar is on crack, and should probably just stop trying to throw stones in that direction.

Secondly, considering I'm his partner and I am one of the only legitimately fat avatars on SLU, in SL, and particularly in this thread, I think it is HILARIOUS that everyone in this thread who is screaming about Gracie's posts probably has an avatar of some kind of "realistically proportionate size" that still lets them wear SL clothing and prim attachments in an easy fashion, if only because that's the reason behind it.

I'm a recovering bulimic and anorexic, and I weigh 260 pounds in RL, and Rosie is big in SL, and I am not in the LEAST BIT OFFENDED by what Gracie wants for her adverts.

If she wants people to have those proportions to wear her clothes, more power to her. If she wants toothpick avatars in her vendor advertisements, YAY FOR HER.

Nowhere -- and I mean NOWHERE in the impetus for this fucking witch hunt did Gracie EVER say she finds those shapes more aesthetically pleasing than other shapes, nor has she badmouthed big avatars, nor has she critiqued ANYONE'S size.

Gracie is some random anonymous unknown person on the internet who plays second life and makes clothes and doesn't want to have to worry about adjusting prims on her models to have some kind of consistency in how they look.

1) If you don't like it, don't buy her clothes.

2) If you don't like it, don't look at her adverts.

She's obviously not influential. She's not TRYING TO INFLUENCE ANYONE except maybe a noob who could use the L$125 an hour to stand on a pose stand in a shape that's not their own to get into some modeling pictures in a store that isn't exactly at the forefront of SL fashion.

To compare SL fashion to RL fashion is idiotic.

To compare SL avatar size to influence over people's RL self images is equally idiotic.

She's not promoting anorexia, no matter what any of you say. She's not promoting bulimia, she's not promoting thinness.

She wants a fucking cartoon for her fucking clothes in her fucking virtual store, and this kind of witch hunt in the name of acceptance is the most hypocritical festering piece of shit I have ever, EVER SEEN.

And I'm not afraid to say I'm really, seriously disappointed in some people that I've highly respected here on SLU looking for a totally ludicrous reason to jump on a bandwagon and lambaste someone for something that does. not. affect. them. at. all.

No one knew who Gracie was three days ago. And now, she suddenly has the power to influence children of the world?

Good fucking grief.

Shit like this is why I hardly post around here any more. I'm legitimately baffled.

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Owner/Designer, Sable Rose Jewelry
Gallinas (near The Shelter): http://slurl.com/secondlife/Gallinas/198/11/59
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http://skatoolaki.com/sablerose -- Sable Rose Jewelry's blog.
http://rosiebarthelmess.com-- my blog.

Trout Rated: 7.0
"You are evidence that a woman who is comfortable in her own skin has a definite advantage over those who are not."

Rhonda Huntress

And on a more pragmatic note, by the time I scale up a mini-skirt designed for the extremely thin body to fit my shape, I have a new ball gown. If the photo on the side of a box is drastically different than a normal proportioned shape I know there is no way what is inside will ever fit me.

Cindy Claveau

You're still making a grand leap there between what I said and my reasons for saying it.

I said that Grace (and others like her in SL) help perpetrate the unhealthy mythos and image.

That's different from saying that she actually kills young women.

In case I'm still not clear: I'm objecting to the whole industry and the images associated with it. Grace has chosen to emulate that industry in SL, and for that reason I'm not exempting her from criticism.

Rosie Barthelmess

Then don't shop there, Rhonda.

I'm twice your size and find plenty of great, high quality clothes that fit me just fine after adjusting them.

Designers who prepare their clothes out of the box for a zero body fat zero hip shape are shortsighted because 90% of avatars do not have that size hips.

Rhonda Huntress

The only thing not stereotypical about Eirik is the woman on his arm.

Rosie Barthelmess

Eirik is a full foot shorter than the average male avatar when he's in human form. When he wears hair it is longer than mine. The overwhelming majority of the time he is either a Loco Pocos tiny, an anthro furry avatar, or a quadruped animal.

Because you have met him once and he happened to be in human form and sitting down most of the time so you couldn't note how tall he was, doesn't make you an authority on his avatar.

Eirik

*shrugs* The fuck I care anymore.

They've proven to be degenerates not worthy of my time anymore.

Cindy Claveau

The ones who earn my true ire are the ones who sell prim skirts NO-MOD without a resize script so you can adjust them.

I mean W. T. F. ?

Rhonda Huntress

The day you opinion matters to me is the day fish ride ducks on the surface of the sun.

Rosie Barthelmess

I agree, so I don't shop there.

Easy peasy.

Solanghe Sarlo

You make kitty cry.

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Miriel Enfield

You said she was no better than them. Then, in another post, you said they kill women. Plus, there were all the links and citations and whatnot. If it was just a phrasing issue, then okay, but it seemed to be a pretty strong implication in your posts.

But again, if it was just phrasing, then okay. The post I quoted from here has a slightly different stance, which I disagree with but find less objectionable.