Surreal

Then I highly recommend as a start a rather old book. Ruth Stout was part of the original organic gardening movement and since she started in her 40s didn't want to kill herself (or her knees).

My parents and I used her methods in Texas on a quarter of an acre garden for 5 years and I used it in Michigan for another 5 - 2 in community gardens and 3 in my house.

No Work Garden Book by Ruth Stout - http://www.amazon.com/Ruth-Stout-No-Work-Garden-Book/dp/0878570004
A good link giving a bit more info.

Ruth Stout's System

Vengence Opus

Thanks, Surreal!

(You are first on my list for the position of Yurt Village Master Gardener. )

My general idea was to build a single greenhouse, divided into sections by growing climate, with individual temperature controls provided by solar power/geothermal heating and cooling. I have yet to decide how water will be provided/recycled, but this is really dependent upon climate as to whether or not I can sustain water levels with a cistern, or if other methods will need to be employed.

This is the idea model I've been checking into:

Permaculture Greenhouse

__________________


“If you're losing your soul and you know it, then you've still got a soul left to lose.” ~ Charles Bukowski

Surreal

Shiny!

I assume you're also thinking about a larger garden during the growing season and using a greenhouse to supplement during the winter.

Helen and Scott Nearing did another book you might want to read called Living the Good Life. You would find their method for extending the season interesting I think - they built their first homestead in Vermont, then moved to Maine when ski development changed their neighborhood.

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Life-Scott-Nearing/dp/0805209700

Surreal

Have you considered keeping a couple of hives of bees?

Keep Bees, Naturally!

Surreal

Oh... and another tip... When you're planning spaces, plan for a root cellar.

(can you tell this is a subject I love)

Lots of links here : Root Cellars

Surreal

Damn if I'm not jealous as hell. I'd love to be doing what you're doing, but I just don't have confidence I can pull it off alone.

But you know what - that's bullshit. I'm going to start laying out a plan on how I could do this solo.

My plan has been to try and have a mostly self-sufficient living system in place by the time I'd retire ~10-15 years from now. That's more than enough time to get all my ducks in a row.

Vengence Opus

Sorry for the length.

Awesome! I've been wanting to checking out more reading on the subject, but really had no idea where to start. I will totally be picking these books up, for sure!

One aspect of the greenhouse that I'm really focusing on is the ability to grow non-native veg, while keeping the possibility of local environmental contamination to a minimum by having those non-native species contained and controlled. I think that by setting it up with this in mind, if needed, the entire structure could be removed, with nothing left in residual that would affect the surrounding environment.

That being said, in keeping with my desire to stay within the "reuse/recycle" mindset, everything used in the construction of said greenhouse will have to be something donated in working condition, or something re-purposed from another use. (As in the case of the bubble pumps for insulation. Re-purposing a pump from a different application would take first priority in front of buying a new, dedicated unit. Which means I had better brush up on some electrical wiring and solder work. )

This is definitely on the list of musts. I know that pollination can be done by hand, but I just have the feeling this would take not only a lot of hands, but also a knowledge of pollination that has already been refined by the humble bumble bee throughout it's evolution. You can't really argue with nature's design, and that job is definitely one I'll leave to the bees.

Not to mention the peripheral benefits of keeping bees, namely honey and wax.



Natural cooling/refrigeration is also high on the list of integrated design features. (Probably something built under the foundation structure, with a staircase leading down. This would be something that, like everything else, could be taken apart/filled in if we were to leave for some reason.)

I am also looking into a refrigeration unit that does not operate on freon gas, or has been converted to using another method. This will be tied into the home solar power unit.

To be honest, it really took something major to kick me in the butt, and get me to start making some serious decisions about where I see my family in 5-10 years. We have zero capital and zero land. What we do have is an amazing amount of drive, inspiration, and creativity. I honestly do believe this alone can take a person farther than they think.

We, as a family, know where we want to be, have a pretty good idea of how we can get there, and the genuine knowledge that absolutely anything is possible if you put your mind to it. As a young man, I railed against the rat race as a headstrong punk. People, over and over, told me I was wrong. "Don't be a dreamer. It's not practical or grown up. Just go along with it, and play the game."

Eventually, after being broken down again and again, I bought into the line, and tried to be a "grownup" in the man's world. It didn't work. More accurately, it failed miserably. I will never again, in my entire life, not pursue a dream out of fear that has been implanted by those who have, in some small way, held the same dream, only to give up on it and spread some sort of apathetic blandness and lack of creative spark.

I will not only be a dreamer for the rest of my life, I will work my ass off to make those dreams a reality. I hope to be able to spread some of that inspiration around, so more than just my own family can get away from this outdated American mindset that wage slavery is the only way to exist and survive in the modern world.

If we can pull it off, and I'm positive we can, then I fully believe it is a possibility for anyone to achieve this. It won't be easy, and it may take some time to gather all the things needed, but that is part of the reward. Working hard to change the way we live locally can only benefit, and make stronger, our community globally.

We will gladly lend our hands, our backs, and our minds to making this possible for anyone who wants it badly enough.

Vengence Opus

Here is a cool little setup that I'm looking into building.

How I built an electricity producing wind turbine

DIY FTW!

Looks great for a first time project.

Sansarya

That wind turbine site is amazing! We've got several local ranchers powering their whole operations on wind (working on a story about that). This sounds like a good option to solar power. Thanks Veng

Vengence Opus

Awesome!

Since you're working on the topic, here are some more great links on the subject...

Welcome to OTHERPOWER.COM

Wind Power: How to Determine if a wind turbine is Practical for You - AltE

Wind Energy Resource Atlas of the United States



I have more, but I need to dig them out.

Vengence Opus

Also, here is another, more detailed link on the type of greenhouse I'm researching.

Solar Greenhouse and Eco Building Technology

Vengence Opus

Well...it's a humble start, but it'll get there.





30' dia., 7' wall, 32 rafters

wanted to start the lattice today, but it just doesn't look like I'll get there tonight.

Surreal

Veng...

Backtracking for a second. Why a yurt over the other possibilities, like earthbag, etc.? My understanding is that the covering has about a 10-15 year lifespan. That was one of the reasons I was less inclined to yurts.

Vengence Opus

Well, we actually looked into several different options before settling on the yurt.

The first we checked out was the rammed earth style, similar to the Earthships of New Mexico.

Earthship Biotecture Sustainable, Independent Buildings

There are several design aspects that we got hung up on. First, the Earthship requires a warmer climate, similar to the American SW, as it relies on passive solar heating to keep warm. The temps here just drop down too far, so that design aspect would be negated by having to install some other means of warmth.

Another is the fact that old tires are used to construct the rammed earth walls. While I believe this is a great way to repurpose them, we have an issue up here that doesn't so much factor into the SW: the forest fire. In the off chance that the structure were to catch fire, you'd have nothing more than a toxic smoke pillar shooting carcinogens into the air for god only knows how long. I couldn't live with myself if something I built cause more harm than good.

The last aspect is the sheer amount of earth we'd need to displace in order to build the structure, and that kind of goes against our principals of design, as well.

As I have mentioned, we also looked into straw bale construction. While this is something I believe to be a wonderful method of building, there are several constraints that we weren't comfortable with, or that are similar to that of a yurt, but worth the trade off.

One issue is the permanence of the structure. If the climate were to change drastically, or the area to become overcrowded, we would be stuck in that spot regardless. The structure cannot be disassembled and rebuilt. True, you could (possibly) reuse the wood and other bits, but you would be buying all new straw, plaster, deck structure to get up and running again.

Much like a yurt, the siding on a bale structure has to be maintained. On a set basis, you have to add more lime plaster to the outside of the structure. Over a period of time, I believe the cost of plastering vs. the cost of re-siding a yurt are very similar. If the yurt were to be incrementally updated by panel, this could be done quite effectively, I believe.

Not to mention, a bale structure in this area would have to be built up off the ground, on a concrete pad, in order to avoid water damage. Not only will the yurt be limited in the amount of concrete that has to be placed (i.e. only for the decking supports), it's much easier to raise the weight of a yurt than it is a bale/plaster/wood structure.

Also, you are limited in the design of a bale structure by whether or not it will have load bearing walls. If your walls are load bearing, you only have so many doors and windows available, your wall length is limited, etc. While I know that you are, indeed, constrained by wall size in a yurt, you have unlimited possibilities for doors/windows, especially windows, as these are not an integral part of the load bearing structure.

So those are some of the considerations we put into making our decision. Add to this the high wind/snow/storm resistance of the yurt, along with the fact that, at least here, a permanent structure is subject to property tax, while a yurt isn't (as it can be removed), and that's kind of how we came about our choice. (I know I'm forgetting something, but I haven't reached my coffee wake up limit yet. ) If I can think of anything else, I'll surely post it.

Surreal

Thanks! Good points that I'm going to add to my considerations as well.

I haven't settled on my building type yet. I'm looking for land first and will then work with those considerations.

Vengence Opus

I've found a great resource for checking out land is this:

Land for sale, acreages for sale, lots for sale at LandWatch.com

The search features are very customizable, and you can get a very good idea of land prices nation wide. Since you can break every state down by county, you can also get a much better idea of statewide trends by land type.

(For example, land in Washington out toward the eastern plains, also known as the Palouse, is fairly cheap. Lots of wheat farms and high desert. Look more toward the west, in the forested regions toward Canada, and the price per acre shoots through the roof, due to the rich Californians who snapped up all the prime bits of forest for recreational land.)

I usually check it daily to see what kind of prices are available in different areas, just to keep on top of it for when that time eventually comes to make a purchase.

Surreal

That's the site I use too. Good deals in MI right now

Trout Recreant

Count me in for the yurt-warming party. I really find yurts intriguing. I don't think I could deal with one for permanent housing, but it would be really nice to have one up in the woods to go to on the weekends or spend the summers in.

I know they can be kept warm - obviously, since the design comes from the Mongolians, who inhabited a pretty harsh, cold environment. They would have to be able to be kept warm. But I can't figure it out. there doesn't seem to be any substantial insulation. The walls are some sort of heavy canvas. How does the insulation work?

Also, how long do they last? Does the canvas have to be oiled? The wood frame should last pretty well, I suppose. How about humidity? Doesn't it get wet inside?

I'm only asking these questions because the more I look at these, the more I want one. They really rock. Any house I own/build from now on is going to have to be as green as possible. That's a personal requirement for me. These look like they could be pretty eco-friendly, but they don't look really solid.

Last question - Veng, are you looking at the Bend area? I love it there. Not only do you have fantastic winter sports, but you have two of the top trout rivers in the USA - the Deschutes and the Metolious, and some of the premier trout lakes in the nation in close proximity. Plus, Bend has a fantastic art community. It's a great place!

One of the things to look into, even if you have land, is hydroponic gardening. I did a hydroponic tomato and pepper garden with my son a couple years back and had a wonderful time with it. It was a good sumemr science project for him (stealth learning ftw!), and a fun building project for us. It used less water, less space, did not disturb the soil at all, and used very little electricity (just a small pond water pump). It was fun to measure out the stuff to do the fertilizer solution, and we got all organic fertilizers. It's the first time I've been able to be really successful with peppers in the Northwest, and there were no problems with black rot on the tomatoes like we tend to get up here, since the entire thing was suspended off the ground. Give me a holler if you want more info.

Damn it. I seriously want a yurt now.

Envoy Costagravas

@Veng: hey, when you finally get it built, I want you to go inside, start filling up balloons with helium and let them float to the ceiling (you're kid's gonna love this) and see if you can get the entire yurt to take off!

Just a thought.

__________________
"When Men differ in Opinion, both Sides ought equally to have the Advantage of being heard by the Publick;
and that when Truth and Error have fair Play, the former is always an overmatch for the latter."
~ Benjamin Franklin

Vengence Opus

Of all of the designs we've looked into, the yurt is the one that really captured our imagination. Some friends of ours have been talking about yurt living for years, although I wonder how seriously now that they are suburb dwellers. We've just really caught the bug (admittedly I've been bit harder ), and my mind is just spinning with all of the amazing possibilities. As I've mentioned before, I've always wanted to have some sort of lodge/retreat, and I think I've finally figured out how I can make it both affordable and eco friendly.

The walls are, indeed, made of all-weather canvas, and several treatments are available to maintain the weather proofing of the structure. The commercially available models use a reflective, NASA-based material for insulating the entire structure, windows included. According to folks who have lived in these insulated units, they stay perfectly warm, and can actually get a bit overwhelming if running a radiant heat source (fireplace). I'm figuring that, even if my first unit is built by me, I can procure an insulation kit for it.

From what I've found so far, there are yurts whose siding/roof is still in great, livable shape at the 18 year mark. The "accepted" lifespan, according to a couple of builders, is around 15 years. However, when you think about it, this is about how long standard roofing material lasts on a traditional house. In my eyes, having to replace sections, or re-treat the canvas, at the fifteen year mark would be far cheaper than replacing an asphalt roof, as well as leaving several hundred pounds of tar/fiberglass/asphalt out of a landfill.

As for the inside, there is an opening dome on top to promote airflow. The yurt itself is set up on a circular deck, off of the other decking by 6", and a side skirt of treated canvas seals the unit off by attaching to this. This keeps the rain and wind out. The decking underneath is also insulated, keeping air from coming up through the floor.

There are multiple stories of these things standing up to 100 mph+ winds, gigantic hail storms, and torrential rains with nary a bit of damage. Inside stays perfectly dry, outside holds up beautifully. I'll dig some links out about firsthand accounts. Basically, short of a tornado setting down directly on top of one, a yurt can withstand amazing amounts of abuse (if properly anchored).

We are definitely looking in that area, for every one of the reasons you mentioned. Fishing is a must. I haven't been able to fish for years, but will definitely get back into it, for sure, both for relaxation and a nice bit to eat.

Not to mention, I would like all of my artist friends to come hang out and share their work.



AWESOME! I'll be hitting you up for sure!

it spreads like wild fire.



I see images of James and the Giant Yurt, floating on the breeze.

Vengence Opus

I wanted to post up this link, as well:

YurtInfo.org forums and classifieds :: Yurts and yurt parts for sale

Yurt classifieds for full structures and parts. I think this is going to be a great source of materials.

Trout Recreant

allright - I'm sold. I Googled around a bit, and you're absolutely right - yurts are pretty damend tough! The posted roof and side load numbers are every bit as good as a stick built house. I didn't know about the raised deck off of the support deck for the yurt to sit on, but that makes sense and would add a nice airspace for floor insulation as well.

Even if you had to completely replace the canvas at 15 years, from what I can see, the cost would be about the same as the cost of a new roof on a house or less, and you could do the installation yourself. Well, you could put a new roof on a house yourself as well, but who wants to do that? Roofing is severe labor, and it's dangerous.

I can envision one large central yurt with small hallways connecting smaller satellite yurts that could be used as bedrooms and bathrooms for a little more privacy. The total build would cost less than a comparable stickbuilt house, and would be a lot more efficient. You could even build in different elevations if you were skilled at building decks and had the right land for it. Elevate it enough and landscape under it, or build it right into the trees and it would be a fantastic place to live!

Now I wonder what the permitting process would be like. Around here, permits are a bear to obtain even for normal construction. If you want to do something different, God help you.

Vengence Opus

From the bit of research I've done, the decking would require a permit like any other deck build. For both the yurt and the deck, it has been said that one will have a much easier time getting project approval if documentation can be provided stating that the structures are "engineered".

I know a general contractor can check out decking plans, but I'm less sure, at this point at least, how much it would cost, or who to talk to, to get approval of the yurt structure itself.

Surreal

You're making a yurt sound more and more appealing over the other options. I have first-hand experience camping in a traditional yurt and I've wanted one as a mountain get-away for a long time.

Being still at the land search phase, I've got a list of considerations...

~1000 per acre or less
5+ acres
4-season road access
3/4ths wooded
homesite with southern exposure
existing well or good water at reasonable depth

In a perfect world it would be no more than a 5 hour drive from where I live & work so that I could spend weekends getting my improvements in place while still working.

I'd prefer some hills.

Surreal

Veng,

What are your thoughts on security?

That's been one of my concerns as even in the back of beyond, I plan to still have internet access and thus computers, etc.