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Old 02-03-2010, 11:00 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Beds beds and bloody beds!

Okies folkies
Humps needs help! (you all know that of course but I mean specific help )

I have built some beds. I spent 4 hours one evening and almost as long the next trying to install MLPv2 on them. I got one set up eventually that I was satisfied with (if not entirely happy) and thought I had cracked it. Then I went to pop the invisi MLPv2 prim on the next bed which was an almost identical size and all the ani's were borked again. I am NOT going through all that again on every bed. No way - no sir - no how. It is not like I particularly liked the system anyway.

IT might be that I really did not want to tackle the job so my heart was not in it, or it might be that I am totally dense and can't figure out a simple bed engine install but either way I am done with MLPVbloody2.

My question is therefore are there any decent, relatively easy to install commercial bed engines out there and what are your experiences of them. It needs to be straightforward and hassle free for me to install. I don't mind a bit of work to set it up initially but I am buggered if I will spend hours at it every time I make a new bed. It needs to be full perm of course so I can sell the beds.

Remember the days when you bought a bed it just had two pose balls stuck on top with a M Sleep and a F Sleep floating above in hover text? I LONG FOR THOSE INNOCENT DAYS!

Humps is imploring you darlings .... take me to your bed and show me how it's done .
I thank you!
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:08 AM   #2 (permalink)
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My partner's been extremely pleased from a nerdy coder standpoint with the responsiveness of the XPose engine. It just came out with version 4, I think. It is NOT, however, inexpensive.
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:20 AM   #3 (permalink)
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It is NOT, however, inexpensive.
I am tempted to ask why is it not inexpensive - but it would come across trollish. I know some like to make a living wage from their SL endeavors - but I see no reason to price things out of folk's purchase range.

I like that they Mystitool price has never really increased over the years - no matter how much more is added to it or scripts are improved.

Some 'charge what the market can bear' and some price in the middle or lower to make steady sales.
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Thanks Sabella
I shall look into it. TBH if it works, looks and feels professional from an end user point of view and is easy(ish) at my end then bugger the expense. It is not worth being cheap at the expense of my sanity.
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:31 AM   #5 (permalink)
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if you want to give the mlp one more try then drop me a line inworld and we'll set up a time for me to come and have a look at what you're doing. (mlp is my core scripting system for the majority of my items). Expose btw is the luxury love child of the mlp, so it's the same basic principles with set up only it has more features
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Old 02-03-2010, 11:34 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Then I went to pop the invisi MLPv2 prim on the next bed which was an almost identical size and all the ani's were borked again. I am NOT going through all that again on every bed. No way - no sir - no how. It is not like I particularly liked the system anyway.
What I've seen other bed makers use is a single, standardized prim that never changes in size. This is set inside the bed frame, rather than forming part of the bed itself. In this way different bed sizes and shapes will not affect the animations prim. From my experience, even a small change (and most especially a prim rotation) will wreak havoc on the positioning of the anims.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:01 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I am tempted to ask why is it not inexpensive - but it would come across trollish. I know some like to make a living wage from their SL endeavors - but I see no reason to price things out of folk's purchase range.
Disclaimer: I am not a coder, in any way, shape, or form.

Coding aint easy. I've watched my partner do it for 10 years. It's complicated. With hard work, can come innovation. Better ways of doing things.

Coded products that are designed for resale (such as a bed engine), have value. The secondary seller can gain additional value for their product by using better code than the competition. [Per my honey, the coder nerd smart guy: We have some items in our sim that use the MLP code. It *continually* has issues that eat away at sim performance, from a memory standpoint. We have some items in our sim that use the non-resale XPose code. They have practically ZERO issues.]

Say for example Joe Coder writes a whole new codebase. It revolutionizes how SL handles a function that lots of people enjoy. Let's say it took Joe four to five hundred hours to complete, and they were able to work on it in their 'leisure' time, working 20 hours per week. (500 hours divided by 20 hours per week = 25 weeks.) That's a lot of time invested, to get paid peanuts.

Let's take that a step forward. Say Joe Coder spent those 500 hours, and was paid US Federal Minimum Wage, of $7.25 per hour. That's $3,625.00 for his work. Now let's convert that to Lindens, using a conversion of 240L to $1.00. We're talking L870,000.00 worth of labor invested in the creation of his product.

Does Joe have the right to earn based on his efforts? I'd say Yes, he does... the same as any content creator does.

Those who can afford Joe's innovative product will have an edge in their market. Those who don't, won't. Individual secondary sellers (furniture makers, etc) make the decision on what THEIR time and effort is worth. They can use a free product, or a more expensive one. Customers *will* notice a difference in the end result, and that *will* affect some customer's purchasing decision.

Taking the example into RL: I want Adobe Photoshop 4CS. It's currently priced WAY out of my budget. However, I'm going to save my pennies and get the best product I can get, for the functionality that I need. I'm currently limping along with Gimp, and I loathe, detest and daily curse that program. I want the best product out there: Photoshop. Adobe has spent millions developing it. I will pay for that level of quality, because it saves me time and aggravation and lost work. Do I wish it was a little cheaper? Yes... but I'm getting what I pay for.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:01 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Darling Beebs I think I love you ( so what are you so afraid of?)

I *think I just realised what I did to mess up. So simple that I can't believe I could not see it but I was a tad frazzled with the bloody ordeal. I did not rotate the prim but I did resize slightly from the bottom and I am almost sure that I probably had 'stretch both sides' checked by mistake. Your post made me realise that a single smaller prim always set at the same height, rot, etc would make much more sense than an invisiprim over the matress. I will check it when I go in world to see if my suspicions are right

Couldbe ..... thanks for the offer! Let me see if Beebs was right and if I am still bamboozled then it's a date! Especially so if the commercial systems are based around MLP anyway. WHatever I bought would still give me the same issues I am having now.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SabellaFallen View Post
Per my honey, the coder nerd smart guy: We have some items in our sim that use the MLP code. It *continually* has issues that eat away at sim performance, from a memory standpoint. We have some items in our sim that use the non-resale XPose code. They have practically ZERO issues.
Thanks for that tidbit. I prefer the Xpose because of some of the features (like the ability to hide the positioning beams), but now I have even more motivation to update any of my (mod) objects using MLP.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thanks for that tidbit. I prefer the Xpose because of some of the features (like the ability to hide the positioning beams), but now I have even more motivation to update any of my (mod) objects using MLP.
hide positioning beams? if you don't want to use positioning beams in set up there are at least 3 other ways to do it.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Likewise Sabella
I too would rather spend for a system if I can be confident that it is better for the end user than a free system that might sometimes cause issues.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:30 PM   #12 (permalink)
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hide positioning beams? if you don't want to use positioning beams in set up there are at least 3 other ways to do it.
I like the positioning beams just fine, but once I'm done with them I'd like them to go away. In older MLP systems, at least, you have to get off the anims and click Stop to get the beams to go away. In the Xpose you can use the beams, then click Hide, while still using the system.
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Old 02-03-2010, 12:48 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Well I am logged in and I did indeed make a noobish mistake with my sizing. I owe you one Beebs xxxxxxx. I am still going to look into the xpose system as to implement Beebs idea of a smaller prim (one size fits all) simply attached to the bed means doing an initial setup at least one more time. If I have to do it I want to be sure I am not going to change systems and have to do it all again.

I absolutely hate animating furniture anyway .....it is probably my least favourite job. I love to build them but hate the bits that come next. I need those bits to be ordeal free as possible because nothing stifles my creativity more than knowing that after the pleasure comes the pain of making my latest 'primthing' do what people expect it to do.

To be fair to MLP .... I know lots of people (from an end user standpoint) who use it and even have it in much of the furniture I have bought. No one has said they have 'issues' with it, then again most folks just buy things and as long as it works they don't care what is going on in the background....myself included as long as I am not the one putting my name on it

Thanks everyone for all the help so far. You are as usual amaaaaaazing. xx
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Old 02-03-2010, 01:21 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You can make the beams go away easily by just hitting the "adjust pose" button a second time. That puts the system right back to normal positioning. No need to hop off the balls.

I just put out a line of beds with MLP and while it was an enormous amount of work, I did learn a thing or two.

1) Make a single size transparent prim for your animation base. Do not alter it. Ever. Make it a size that will accommodate any of your bed styles, or adapt the beds so that the animation base fits neatly on them. The more you can standardize, the happier you will be. Once you get that animation base set, just copy it and move it from bed to bed. I think mine is something like 2.5 x 2.5 x .10 -- I do not use this prim as the root prim for the bed. I simply lay the animation base prim right on top of the bed.

2) When you are positioning animations, adjust your avie appearance to the tallest possible setting so that you aren't burying your potential customers' head in a pillow or halfway through a bed post if they've decided to max out the height slider.

3) Adjusting couples animations is happier with an avie on both balls.

4) Wear minimal clothing when doing adjustments. Skirts, shoes, etc.. throw off your view of contact points where the avie meets the bed prims and contact points between avatars.

5) Set your positions a little higher to accommodate a wider range of avatar body sizes.

6) Set your ~ball offsets a bit higher so that none of your balls get lost in the bed prims. To do this, drag the ~ball out of inventory to the floor. Change the script inside:

llSitTarget(<0.0,0.0,0.1>,ZERO_ROTATION);

and change it to

llSitTarget(<0.0,0.0,-0.5>,ZERO_ROTATION);

Save and take back into inventory. Replace the old ball with the fixed one. (NOTE: if you've already adjusted your positions, you'll have to adjust the height all over again, but the general position will remain the same.)

7) This is just me, but I don't like having the MLP engine in the root prim. I use a base prim with the Touch Passer script and I put instructions for using the MLP system in the root prim just in case the notecard I supply with the product has gotten lost. I'd rather not have customers messing with the MLP scripts and notecards unless they know what they are doing.

8) Getting the first one done is a BITCH. But it's just copying and minor adjustments after that. I have stuff that involves pillows and other props, so I still have to adjust 5 poses for each bed, but 5 is way better than 50.

9) Do your final permissions check using the permissions feature in the contents tab of your animation base. I leave all the MLP scripts and notecards as full perm and change only the animations to the final permissions before deployment.

10) Test with an alt to double check your permissions before deployment.

11) REALLY watch your cases and punctuation when getting your first model set up. MLP is very sensitive and you will give yourself a whole set of gray hairs trying to figure out why you've adjusted an animation 7 times and it isn't taking...then you realize there is a typo or a missing bracket someplace.
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:20 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I absolutely hate animating furniture anyway .....it is probably my least favourite job. I love to build them but hate the bits that come next.
*ahem*

Working with anims and MLP menus and positions is one of my absolutely favorite OCD pastimes in SL. Truly. I've spent many happy hours ripping various anims out of their little pink and blue balls and putting them in an XPose prim for my house, my garden, whatever. Just yesteday I bought a marvelous bookcase with about a half-dozen anims and already I'm chomping at the bit to update it to Xpose and throw in some additional book-centric poses.



I could see a rather beneficial partnership here. Free furniture in exchange for the joy of preparing your animations.

Call me.
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:32 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Humps, the xpose set up is exactly the same as the mlpv2 set up.. plus a few extras..

what we do is have a standardised mattress prim.. that we use in all our beds..
if i end up shrinking it vertically then all that is needed is to adust the poses vertically.. not that much of a biggie.. but most of the time, theyre all the same size.

now this is pretty much the same as real life.. mattresses do come in set sizes...
bed companies use the same mattress on all beds of X size... etc etc.

just get one set up properly.. and youre set to go
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:48 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I have had a terrible time with MLP and hate it with a passion -- but the MLP group is VERY helpful, and since I joined I have been able to figure out each of the myriad mistakes I made setting it up.

That hint above about setting the balls higher to begin with is a really good one, as are all the others.
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Eku, the reason I didn't go with using a mattress is that it limits you to standard beds. If you want to do something like a rug or a funky shape, you are back at square one. With the thin animation base prim I can lay that on top of a circular bed, a rug, a standard issue bed...whatever creative direction I want to go in.

Sure, it adds an extra prim. But is it worth an extra hour of your time in re-adjusting EVERY time you want to do something non-traditional just to save a prim?
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Old 02-03-2010, 02:55 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Isablan.. i am VERY lucky in that yure is great at putting menus in everything...
for the beds i use our standard mattress but for things like phone booths, glory holes, interrogation desks, gynecology chairs, showers wotever..
i just hand the thing to yure full perm and she sorts it out.

the mattress is purely for MY ease of use hehe.
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Old 02-03-2010, 03:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
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This is where I've been going wrong. Out of the 100+ mlp items I've made none of them have the same animation set and each is adjusted to the furniture.

however, I have learnt my lesson now and have started to make a furniture range with the same anim pack as a time saver. I must say I'm impressed, reducing the build time from anything up to 100 hrs down to less than 10 but I still don't know if I can bring myself to release them as they seem like cheating. sigh

It's nice to see how many others do it. I don't feel quite so bad now.
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Old 02-03-2010, 03:58 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Xpose costs 100KL$ for the unlimited builders ver... MLPv2 is free
MLPv2 is catching up to it in functionality... both of them are originally made by the same person Miffy Fluffy.. but Lear Cale has taken over MLPv2 and it is constantly improving
MLPv2 supports up to 6.. avatars.. Xpose more than that
MLPv2 supports facial expressions, props, sounds.. is compatible with the Xcite scripts

we often talk about getting Xpose.. just for the brand name recognition.. but we never actually get round to it, because MLPv2 is very good.. and getting better all the time.

Theres also a new engine about.. its also open source.. called NPose. Its actually very nice.. has no balls like MLPv2 and Xpose... has a swap and synch feature
we use it now for cuddle pieces..

we are lucky in that yure makes our anims.. so i make some furniture then explain to her what kind of anims i want .. and she makes and installs them (yay) for chairs and stuffs we use the perfect sitter (multi sitter ver) and for beds MLPv2 for newer cuddlers we use Npose.. but used MLPv2 for the older ones. we will use Npose for all the future baths, showers etc couple poses items...

we used to use the Noposeball thingie.. but the support for it is really bad and the scripts periodically dont work after a server update

like all things, in the beginning MLPv2 a pain till you learn the steps...
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Old 02-03-2010, 05:26 PM   #22 (permalink)
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My business partner, Vesta Martynov, and I use MLPV for most our stuff; we've only ever used Xpose for custom orders where people wanted some functionality that MLPV doesn't have (which doesn't happen very often, 'cos MLPV does most things). Vesta is a complete perfectionist, and she's very happy with MLPV. And as a scripter, I find it way easier to customise stuff -- because I can see the code -- than when another builder asks me to make Xpose do something Miffy hasn't thought of.

Like Eku and Yure, we were planning originally to use Xpose but we just never feel the need to spend all that money on something MLPV does perfectly well. And, like Eku and Yure, we are great fans of nPose, too.

@Sabella -- I just don't understand the reference to MLPV having "issues that eat away at sim performance, from a memory standpoint" that Xpose doesnt. What figures should I be looking at in View-Statistics to check this, and how's he measuring Xpose's memory use?
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Old 02-03-2010, 05:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Innula.. with the new script we got today.. MLPv2 uses less than Xpose.. its just the shutdown when not in use thingie
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Old 02-04-2010, 11:19 AM   #24 (permalink)
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@Sabella -- I just don't understand the reference to MLPV having "issues that eat away at sim performance, from a memory standpoint" that Xpose doesnt. What figures should I be looking at in View-Statistics to check this, and how's he measuring Xpose's memory use?
As I said, I'm not the coder. Abe Shackleton is my partner and the manager of our sim. He can answer those questions, whereas I cannot - he's the maintenance man, administering and fixing and adjusting and monitoring sim resources, I'm the playtoy that provides entertainment and does the shopping . You are welcome to ask him on-grid, though!

- sabella

PS: I relayed this post to him, and he said, "Periodic sampling over equivalent time periods: Same animations, same configuration. Results: Different script time. Mlpv2 consistently had a longer script time - not by a little, either."

PPS: To Clarify: He's referring to XPose 4 vs MLPV2. XPose4 also has the shutdown feature.

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Old 02-04-2010, 12:54 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Business: Something Spunky
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabellaFallen View Post
PS: I relayed this post to him, and he said, "Periodic sampling over equivalent time periods: Same animations, same configuration. Results: Different script time. Mlpv2 consistently had a longer script time - not by a little, either."

PPS: To Clarify: He's referring to XPose 4 vs MLPV2. XPose4 also has the shutdown feature.
Thanks. It was the reference to script memory (which isn't the same as script time) that threw me -- I couldn't figure out what was being compared, but it makes sense now.
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