WarKirby Magojiro

Hello all.

A project I'm presently working on, is a weapon. not the griefy kind, but a roleplay-esque weapon. swords, guns, etc Well, a sword specifically. I used to be really into this sort of thing a few years ago, and always harbored dreams of making such things.. My skills have advanced to the point I can make something I feel comfortable releasing, but so too, has SL advanced. New systems and communities all over the place. To say I'm out of touch with how things work would be an understatement.

So, going on what I know:

I know that most combat systems which involve melee combat, have an informal standard control mechanism, requiring the user to hold down left mouse button, and use WASD to attack. So this is what I've used as a base.

I also know that systems like DCS, CCS, etc, do damage via communication between systems, and that the weapons are really just fancy packaging. Since I'm using projectiles for things like determining hit effects, I've made sure to design those as phantom so they don't interfere in combat system operation or give unfair advantages

That's just about as far as my knowledge goes, though. I'm currently doing research on other combat systems, and what they require in terms of compatibility, but I thought it would be a good idea to ask the wonderful people here for advice too.

To start with, what combat systems are there ? Obviously, I'm not too interested in closed systems that only work with manufactuer toys. So what systems are there that are open to third party development ? I was mostly playing with RCS back in my rp days, though I know of DCS and CCS too, and Spellfire. Is there anything else noteworthy ?

And, a few questions regarding specific mechanics.

Blocking: The practice of holding up a weapon or shield to stand between yourself and incoming blows. And certainly something I'd like to implement natively. RCS used the C/PgDn key for this, done by holding it down while lmb is also held. Does this standard still prevail? are there systems which use it in a toggling manner, or use a different key?

Also related to blocking, is there an accepted practice on using block prims? ie, rezzing a small object in front of the avatar while they're blocking, to intercept bullets and such. do some/most combat systems already do this? would my doing it as part of the weapon cause issues?


Attack Stance: When the user is holding left mouse button, they generally do a specific animation making this obvious. My question here though, how does/should the attack stance affect movement? Should users be held in place when the weapon is raised? or free to move. Is this something that varies, and that I'd have to make special exceptions for ?


Any other general advice that I haven't specifically asked about would be nice too. Thank you in advance for any replies.

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Beezle Warburton

"I also know that systems like DCS, CCS, etc, do damage via communication between systems, and that the weapons are really just fancy packaging. Since I'm using projectiles for things like determining hit effects"

It's best to not use projectiles at all for melee weapons. Or at least give the user the option of turning them off. It's a good way to get your weapons banned from RP sims -- they tend to be hardasses about it because of collision lag.

<edit to add correction about CSI weapons>

Samurai Island weapons were Persona Non Grata in some RP sims because they used projectiles. They added a mode to turn 'em off

Gorean combat (GCS) -- the info on the combat system is free, I don't remember where it was though. Keep in mind that the Goreans don't use the WASD attacks, but only a single left-click attack. My swords I actually ended up adding a menu to so the user could change between single-click and WASD attacks.

Best suggestion I have -- buy other peoples stuff from a variety of makers and combat locations and actually try them out to see how they work. I ended up coming up with the menu system to make my stuff have the widest appeal.

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WarKirby Magojiro

My projectiles are phys/phantom/volumedetect. Is that still going to cause lag issues?

Alternatively, would it be workable to use an llSensor for detecting targets, and then rezzing a NONphys/phantom projectile, just for effects? That prim wouldn't collide with anything.

Is it the collisions that are the problem? or the rezzing of objectS? or some combination? What I'm using the projectiles for, is determining a hit target. ie, slash an avatar, you get a slashy sound and blood particles. Slash a wall, you get a clink sound and sparks, etc.

In any case, I'll certainly add an option to disable that entirely, thought it's less fun without sounds

Do you happen to know where I might find this system, and weapons for it? A single click system seems like it would lead to a lot less variety in animations, though I suppose I can use some randomness to skirt around that and produce variance.
Indeed I shall. I think I have an idea on where to start, too

Beezle Warburton

You can't go wrong with LLSensor. Even FX might raise eyebrows. To learn more about the "why" I'd start a thread over on the CCS forum:

City of Lost Angels/CCS

To get the Gorean system, I just dressed appropriately (Human AV and I have a ragamuffin outfit that passes as a Panther) and went cruising the shopping area of Gorean sims. They should have the combat system and an observer tag right next to the entry point. Plus that's where the weapons will be

Galen McGinnis

I believe that mele weapons that use a projectile are banned (CCS,WARPS (Now XRPS)) because those systems handle mele combat and allow for various skills to be implemented through them. Problem with a projectile is that it is seen as a bullet and would therefore do the system default damage even when a player has been jinxed (rendered mele impotent so to speak) and thus defeating the system.

As Beezle said best to talk to those who work with the system you are targeting with your builds.

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talisien

It would be best to post on the CoLA Forums that Beezle linked to get more information about the way CCS works.

As far as I know from running a CCS sim, any mele weapon that also rezzes a projectile will be banned if found out due to the way it interacts with the system, as well as adding lag for the rezzing and the scripts in the projectile.

My advice is have an option to turn it off.

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WarKirby Magojiro

This is seeming like the best way to go.

so far, I'm looking at adding a config menu with:

• Options to switch the hit detection between projectile based, llSensor based, and none at all.
• An option to switch control schemes between WAS D and single click
• an option to prevent the rezzing of any other objects. Effects and such. Admins in midgar noted this was a problem.
• Option to disable pushing
• Option to not rez shield prims.

Plus a quick "rp mode" button that sets all to the most generally desired settings for a sim (all of the above off, WASD controls)]

Can anyone think of anything additional that may be needed ?

Chalice Yao

Remember that systems like DCS actually use collisions, to my knowledge. Unless you can get the DCS API to check what kind of messages you can use instead for special damage, DCS mostly depends on actual physical collisions, kind of like C:SI

I'd personally peek at DCS2, CCS, WARPS, plain safezone (Linden Damage). I think those are the most used ones, and most if not all are collision compatible.
So, your config setting between llsensor and messages, and collisions is a good move.

As for the weapons, another thing:
Allow a switch to use it in first-person only and third-person as well.

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WarKirby Magojiro

I don't really understand the reasoning here. Currently, I've got it setup to allow both lmb inputs (third and first). Unless I'm gravely mistaken, you can only be in one of the two at a time. what purpose would it serve to have an option to limit it to one or the other?

Also, every time I've said DCS I really meant DCS2. I wasn't aware the original even still exists. Can you tell me any more about WARPS? I've never heard of that. Anywhere I could find info ?

Chalice Yao

Simple, so it doesn't accidentally trigger in third person when walking around and clicking :>

When I say DCS, I pretty much mean DCS2, yes :>

As for WARPS..I honestly don't know, I just see it mentioned very very often in the weapons category on SLX. Usually the line goes 'Works/tested in DCS, CCS, WARPS', so it must be kind of influental for some combat groups. I have a feeling it's to be found near the Star Wars corner, but I'll check again.

WarKirby Magojiro

This is generally why swords come with a sheath
you put it away and it stops taking control input.

As an aside, I'm using two methods for sheathing/unsheathing.

1. Click the sheath
2. Use an included gesture (just a message really)

are any other methods commonly used ?

talisien

Without getting into the myriad of politics surrounding WARPS and CCS, basically, if it works in CCS, it should work in Warps, they are based on the same code.

Chalice Yao

Yes, but taking a step away from pure combat, think of the Rpers :3 You know, cases where one -does- simply move about with it unsheathed.

Perhaps I should have reworded my feature suggestion: Give the sword, just like guns, a 'safety' toggle in general so controls get dropped/taken again while unsheathed.


As for the sheathing..the usual trinity applies: Manual chat command, touch, supplied gesture and everybody's happy :3 Can't think of anything else, really, unless you want to do something fancy like doubletapping crouch to sheath/unsheath.

Galen McGinnis

At present, as far as I know, basic damage bullets are the norm, with the system handling mele.

For XRPS (Warps's successor) contact Baron Nowhere.

Wiki here: XRPSAPIWiki

WarKirby Magojiro

Ok, not really about combat systems. But I'm having animation problems in general.

AOs are an annoying double edged sword, as we know. They cause untold interference with pretty much anything animation related. Priority 4 animations can mitigate most, but not all of the problems (especially not when the AO uses priority 4 itself.)

So for optimal functioning, I need the user to disable their AO. This can leave them looking rather silly though, so I'm wondering if it would be best to just go ahead and implement a partial AO within my system. Mostly, user defineable stand/walk/run animations. Maybe jump too.

Good idea, or too much ?

Galen McGinnis

Have seen a few weapons with this implemented. Then again when I played in NOR a ruling from the Admins made it necessary to disable ones AO prior to combat whether you were the attacker or their target, to many were using animations that gave the appearance of avatar displacement that made if difficult for those who didn't know to shoot the name tag.

I guess the watchword for most development would be to set up a means to let the users change settings to suit the particular place that they play. Otherwise you'll end up maintaining models for each sim which would be a nightmare logistically.

Nothing like the drama of combat, errrr role play sims. Well maybe the Fashionista's clubhouse or something.

WarKirby Magojiro

do commonly used AOs like ZHAO have any script acessible toggle command? I'd really like to add in a command to turn the user's AO off on unsheath, and back on when sheathed. is that feasible ?

Failing that I suppose I could give users a script to put inside the AO, which listens for messages, and disables other scripts in the objec when instructed, although that's more setup than is wise to expect of the average user :/

WarKirby Magojiro

And another question. Is there a general convention on how long a weapon should take to sheath/unsheath?

ATM, I have a fairly flashy unsheath animation that takes 2 seconds. I'm starting to wonder if that's too long

Chalice Yao

2 seconds is definitely too long. Think about it, if you go into spontaneous combat, you draw quickly. I doubt there is any general ruling about it aside of 'Don't be cheap and make it instadraw'. A flashy, quick draw should be fine. (Hint for awesome: make doubletap down a quickdraw, a click on the weapon a normal draw).

As for the AOs, yes, they allow to be toggled via chat commands usually, tho I doubt they all use a common channel for it :<

The command is usually 'ao on'/'ao off'. I remember channel 99 being common there, but some use 1, as well as even (ew) 0.