Ilan Tochner

The person who created the Serenity Island world I mentioned previously is still building it up to 100K prims but another Kitely user has already made another 100K prim world publicly available on Kitely:

100K Prim Test World | Kitely - Virtual Worlds on Demand

This world contains 100,000 prims (prims, sculpts, mesh, as well as 3482 textures and 1201 running scripts) and had a Sim FPS of 53.7 a couple of minutes after 3 people came in-world with SL v3 and Firestorm v4 viewers.

Please note that new users entering the world can create some additional server load until they get all the visible assets and that this world has a lot of assets that need to be downloaded. People using v2/v3 viewers will have a much better rezzing experience than people using v1 viewers - v2/v3 viewers take advantage of HTTP textures provided by our cloud-based asset system while v1 viewers are forced to rely on OpenSim's UDP assets. v1 viewers will therefore create a lot more server load while they fetch assets from the server, negatively effecting Sim FPS.

I'll post a link to the modified 100K prims Serenity Island world once it is ready.

Kabalyero

hey Ilan, how long does a Free World from a Free user last?

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Joshua Nightshade

I'll have to take your word for it, or the word of anyone else who chooses to check it out, as I have absolutely no plans on creating an account there.

However, I'm pleasantly surprised that it was successful and I will retract my previous remarks and edit my prior post accordingly. I apologise for questioning it and congratulations.

I'll float a message to the OpenSim core team to ask if this level of performance can be expected from the base code now as well. It's been some time since I've handled it, so I'm impressed if this can be accomplished without additional modification now.

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Ilan Tochner

Hi Kabalyero,

Your free Kitely world lasts as long as you have an account. :-)

The time you can spend inside it depends on how many Minutes and KC you have. The Free Plan includes 120 free Minutes per month.

Ilan Tochner

Thanks Joshua,

I'm glad we've gotten that out of the way.

Tranquillity Dexler

Evening Ilan,

Out of curiosity, what was the memory usage like on the region?

Monica Weir

I drank the Kitely Koolaid a lonnnng time ago. Although at the moment, RL makes it impossible to do anything w/ my sim there, noticed the thread, so putting in a few words from another loyal fan of the platform and Ilan in particular.

Ilan Tochner

The modified Serenity Island world with 100K prims (prims, sculpts, mesh, and many textures) and 2221 running scripts had a Sim FPS of 53.7 a couple of minutes after 2 people came in-world with SL v3 viewers.

Unlike the previous world I linked to which duplicated a single lighthouse to increase prim count beyond its initial 22K prims build, this world includes entire build levels that were duplicated at higher elevations so as to more closely simulate a real-world scenario.

It's publicly available on Kitely at: Serenity Island - prim capability test | Kitely - Virtual Worlds on Demand

As stated previously, please note that new users entering the world can create some additional server load until they get all the visible assets and that this world has a lot of assets that need to be downloaded. People using v2/v3 viewers will have a much better rezzing experience than people using v1 viewers - v2/v3 viewers take advantage of HTTP textures provided by our cloud-based asset system while v1 viewers are forced to rely on OpenSim's UDP assets. v1 viewers will therefore create a lot more server load while they fetch assets from the server, negatively effecting Sim FPS.

Ilan Tochner

Hi Tranquillity,

The RAM consumption for the Mono processes that were running the OpenSim instances which hosted the worlds (after they finished loading from storage) were:

1.1GB for 100K Prim Test World | Kitely - Virtual Worlds on Demand

1.3GB for Serenity Island - prim capability test | Kitely - Virtual Worlds on Demand

Ilan Tochner

Thank you Monica,

BTW, have you noticed that you can start using Kitely Credits for inworld transactions? Kitely Credits as a Virtual Currency, and Web-Based Messaging | Kitely Blog

Rosemaery Lorefield

Who the hell said I wasn't talking to you anymore? I don't think it was me.
Why would I do that? You are fun as hell to poke at.

Rosemaery Lorefield

Sweet! I don't know if a 100,000 prim build is very practical, but it sure looks to be possible

Slob Marley

I checked the 100,000 prim world earlier it took a while to open but once it was loaded the high prim count didnt seem relevant to performance there was no lag and 45 fps in firestorm.

Ilan Tochner

Hi Slob,

Due to the way Kitely's on-demand system works, a world is taken offline and stored several minutes after the last avatar leaves it. The next time someone enters that world (from a World Page or by TPing from another world) the world is reactivated on a newly started sim.

The amount of time this world bootstrapping process takes depends on the world complexity, so for a 100K prim world this can take a few minutes. When TPing from inworld to an offline world you get a message that the world is starting and can continue being active inside the world you are in until the destination world is ready (at which point you'll be automatically TPed into it).

Please note that popular worlds rarely go offline as there is almost always someone inside them.

Anya Ristow

I predict SL will do this eventually. I also predict a grid attack vector will be to send a bot to as many sims as possible.

Ilan Tochner

Hi Anya,

I think you are right on both accounts:

1) An on-demand service is much more efficient in resource usage so SL would be foolish not to move to this model.

2) Griefers will try to attack grids that use on-demand sim allocation using various attack vectors that target how those grids operate. We've spent quite a lot of time developing automated tools to combat this. SL will need to do the same if they choose to switch to on-demand sim allocations as well.

ohn lang

(my first post, long-time lurker) I'd seen the discussion in this thread when it started and saw that Joshua had expressed significant doubts as to whether one could actually get 100K prims in a Kitely world, in a build that had some complexity, scripts, and so on. I had a Kitely account and had already uploaded the Linda Kelly OAR to one of my worlds, so just started adding to it, by copying a lighthouse) until it reached the 100K limit. The original build had regular prims, sculpts, and meshes, as well as scripts, so i thought it would be a good demonstration. It was a lot of fun and didn't take long. It was especially exciting to be one of 3 avatars inworld with the 100K prims, and see no signs of crashing LOL. The Serenity world with the 100K prims, though, that's much more impressive as the builds are complete (not cheating like me with the lighthouse) and there are lots more scripts on top of the prim count.

So, 100K builds are definitely possible

Ilan Tochner

Thank you ohn for spending the time building your test world and thank you for sharing the link to its world page with us.

Rosemaery Lorefield

This is a good idea, SL started a region idle kind of thing which I think was a good step. It's good that you were able to build the functionality in to begin with.

Rosemaery Lorefield

That's pretty cool that you were able to do it, even if it was "cheating" lol.
Happy de-lurking!

Ilan Tochner

Hi Rosemaery,

Kitely's entire business is built on it being able to provide worlds with sims only when they are truly needed. We wouldn't be able to provide people with such low prices (starting off with 1 free world per account) if we had to keep worlds active on sims 24/7 without someone actually paying us for them.

Virtual Clover

The ones most likely to protest still don't quite grasp the concept. I was there myself and for quite awhile couldn't see how it would be a better deal, and the presumption I'd have to foot the bill for people visiting.

Here's the difference, once again:

In SL, unless you're renting parcels per se, you're going to spend a thousand bucks or whatever it is now on a full region. Then you're going to be locked in to a monthly payment of 295 bucks. After a year, you've shelled out 3540 bucks. If it's mainland, it's 2340 bucks, plus the grand. You get ONE region with a max limit on 15k prims. If more than about 20 avis show up, on top of having used large textures, mega prims, and scripts, your ONE region will lock up and crash, and when it's not doing that, you may as well just pull up a chat window because you're not going to be doing much anyway.

In the end, you think 295 (or even 195) and unlimited use for ONE region is the better deal because you haven't been able to get your head around that pay as you go business, or time in world and are skittish about paying for other people.

In SL, you still pay for other people...you're paying 295 a month to host your ONE region so no more than about 20 or so people can show up at once and do anything even remotely non irritating and lag producing. You set up your mall, store, or dance club and hope those freepers will bother signing up enough to spot you a donation, or you sell enough widgets to break even and do nothing more than meet that 295 tier payment. If you make a little extra, awesome. But you're paying out your hind end to do it, even if you haven't figured it out yet. You're shelling out over 3 grand a year to do nothing more than let people browse your ONE region and hopefully not all at once so it doesn't crash.

Enter Kitely.

Kitely has a pay as you use list of plans...nobody who is a hard core world player will stick with the 5 bucks and 2 hours - we know better than that. But that's not aimed at people who are heavy users. It's to help people new to it at all or who only need it for a brief little appearance or event. So skip that because it's not for you.

For those hard core users, the $50 plan is ideal...you get some good time in there, 200 hours plus credits. That's a lot more time than it looks on paper. And you have 30 regions, not ONE. And those are cloud stored and an instance per region, so it has far more pulling power on any one of those 30 regions, and has 100k prims instead of 15k, and can host mobs of avis without crashing the whole thing.

And then there is simply the unlimited option, platinum...$100mo. You can stay in there 24/7, and instead of ONE region, you end up with 100 of them. More than you'll probably even know what to do with, or even want to for what it's worth. But you've got one of those options and can have plenty of regions to play with, and no time limit.

Let's look at that one more time and see if SL is really pulling the win.

SL ONE region cost per month for unlimited use, minimal space, prim, and avi limits: $295 and over 3000 a year

Kitely 100 region cost per month for unlimited use, maximum space, maximum prim and avi limits: $100, $1200 yr.

Nobody's forcing you to use all 100 regions - you can set up just the one, or 4 of them or whatever spread you want and enjoy. If all you want is a spot with a house, then terra the rest to scenic and only play with one region. You're STILL spending 195 less with Kitely for a much stronger service and can hang out and do whatever, same as you do in SL.

If you pay $50mo, you still have 30 regions with all the same benefits, and you won't be logged in 24/7 anyway and you know it. It's wasting resources...and you've saved $245 bucks just like that.

If you shop all the time in SL, then essentially you're paying SL 295 (or 195) to spend money.

If you're the occasional user and just want to pop in now and then, spend a few hours a month, don't care about multiple regions, then go for the $20mo. Same benefits, and still astonishingly less expensive than SL.

Kitely is new and it is in its early stages and no there is not the same option for content as in SL...but you have to recognize that OSG and OS and other indie grids, as well as indie viewers make it possible to pick up all sorts of content from there and bring it to Kitely, and more content is being produced regularly because it's the better deal.

Kitely's been working hard behind the scenes and rolling out new features and updates at lightning speed. From the beginning, everyone bitched about Facebook (even myself). So, they got on the ball and installed alternative log in options, they've added all sorts of things and are not stopping. They've since turned on multi region teleporting, so you can zip to and from any one of your regions in a second. They're opening up "mega regions" for the premium plans so instead of a 65m region, it can be expanded to multi region, so you can sail and fly and whatever it is you need that kind of space for - build a true virtual kingdom.
They fully intend to open up to other grids, teleporting, commerce, all that stuff so it's open.

Personal matters have required my time as of late so I've been unable to get in. I was kicking the 100 unlimited option but reduced it to 20. My stuff's still there. Pretty soon, I'll move it back to unlimited when I know I'll have more time inworld.

THAT is convenient.

Think if you weren't able to log into SL for awhile that LL would hold your region without that 295? Or offer a reduced rate option? Hell no. They'll yank that region and everything on it and then you get to pay yet another installation fee and start all over.

Kitely - Ilan himself - goes out of his way to interact with the members, and with the public, to patiently answer questions and clear up the confusion because there IS confusion, and has far more patience than I would when dealing with douchebags like Joshua, who really seems to enjoy SLU for no other reason than to indulge his Prok MPD episodes and act like a dick to people as if he owns the rights to opinions everywhere. He's rude and his projector's smoking.

At no point is LL bothering to really interact with the residents. They bark it off from on high and paying members be damned. I've personally attended a number of meetings with Ilan and other members of Kitely and he's open arms getting our feedback, what we like, what we prefer or want to see, what problems we have, and then in 24 hours or so, it gets handled or some new thing is rolled out. Ilan cares because it is his business, but he's got more professional ethos than any grid owner I've encountered yet, and by far more than LL ever had. So what if he wants people to spread the word about Kitely?

If you correctly grasp the true benefit of Kitely and how it smacks the rest, you can't not spread the word. It's common sense.

Pay LL 4 grand for ONE region with minimal prims, space and attendance for a car payment, can't move your stuff, can't save that creation you built, can't share it, can't do anything but pay SL for a glorified chat room that just looks really cool but by and large will end up a ghost town anyway, or pay 295 a month to shop or whatever you pay.

If you're making thousands, then more power to you...but hopefully you won't like break your leg and end up offline for 30 days...your stuff will be gone when you get back.

Kitely IS the better deal all around. The 100mo plan is perfect and still incredibly less than SL.

If you're paying 30 or 40 a mo in SL for a parcel, that's all you get and even more reduced prim limits, space, activity before it crashes - and if you're on the mainland it's one big ugly lag fest. Spend 20 a mo and get the full region, tons of prims and no crashing.

So before you snidely roll your eyes with that ridiculous little elitist rap some of you tend to roll off like you have a clue, why not actually get the clue and see if you can justify it.

If you like paying LL nearly 4 grand a year for ONE region and think you're the smart one in the room, then more power to ya.

Otherwise, it really just boils down to how well you can do the math.

Ilan Tochner

Wow, that was a long recommendation Virtual :-)

Thank you for the kind words and enthusiasm about Kitely. It's great to see that our efforts are recognized.

BTW, when we roll out bigger worlds, people on the Platinum Plan will be able to have 100 worlds each 16 regions in size, so you could say that at that point we'll be providing 1600 regions worth of land for $100/month... The Gold Plan will enable 9-region worlds so you'll be able to get 270 regions worth of land for $50/month. And, to complete the picture, the Silver Plan will enable 4-region worlds so you'll be able to get 40 regions worth of land for $20/month.

Amelia E

Look, I'm not really impressed by all the posts by brand new accounts, who've obviously registered here for no other purpose than to shill Kitely.

Oh, I grasp the concept just fine. I just don't find it attractive.

Ilan Tochner

Hi Amelia,

What about the concept don't you find attractive?

If, as a land owner, when all is said and done, you end up paying less on Kitely per hour you actually spend inworld than on SL, then isn't the Kitely way of billing more attractive than paying a higher tier cost on SL?