SLUniverse Forums

Aki Shichiroji · 07-14-2008, 02:09 AM

Fundamentally i wish the roles associated with the paying, management, and running of estates was more clearly laid out and the titles for such more accurate to what they actually *do*, reflecting a better understanding between BOTH the customer and LL as far as what can and can't be done depending on circumstance (IE: whether the region is being developed for a client, whether the region is being leased from a third party, etc)

Lillie Yifu · 07-14-2008, 02:10 AM

"This is something i feel LL needs to make more clear. I don't think the KB really makes the distinction between the billed avatar and the estate owner outright, as far as I can recall. I do get the impression LL put together these policies together with the idea that the EO *must* also be the billed account, which isn't always the case. As such, I think this may affect how different companies handle this change. LL may be bending that rule, but I do feel that in doing so it should adjust its published policies to match."

The KB is confusing on these issues so let me explain it carefully.

The payor is the account billed for an island. By default, and for most of sl, the payor and the Estate Owner are one and the same. Recently LL began allowing avatars to use the alt-payor/Estate Owner functionality to bill one avatar, but have another as the Estate Owner. They describe this as flexibility, but a security risk. The Estate Owner does not own the island, and it does not, presently, cost anything to do this. However, LL does it at their discretion. Presently the avatar to be assigned EO does not even need to be a premium account. Being EO of an openspace sim does not require the person be an island owner, being payor does. In effect, by using the alt-payor functionality, LL has made the difference between payor and EO, which as far as I am told used to be "none," into a more important distinction. The payor counts for concierge line access, the payor can remove the EO by filing a ticket, the payor can force various issues, such as moving an island or moving it into the red zone of the EO's island, without getting a confirming ticket from the EO. They can ask for one to be nice to the EO, but they do not need to.

In many places where the KB reads "Estate Owner," what it now means is "payor." In case of any dispute, the payor gets final say. The "Estate Owner," in this arrangement, is not the payor, and does not "own" the island from LL's point of view... except.

Except that in the land store the Estate Owner, not the payor, exerts the control of spaces, and someone who is the EO, but not the payor, can place new islands through the land store. They can, I am told, also order new openspace sims if they are EO on a full size sim.

Many things in this area are in flux, and it is understandable that people be confused. However, I will repeat the status quo for clarity.

The island is ordered.
The island is loaded on to the grid.
A ticket is submitted as a new order adjustment to set EO to a different avatar. The new EO cannot be blocked by LL. They may have some other internal review. It takes a widely varying amount of time to be processed, from hours to two weeks.
After some period of time, for reasons known only to the concierge unit, this ticket is processed, and the new EO has the estate owner privileges.

Aki Shichiroji · 07-14-2008, 02:11 AM

By the same token, third party providers would probably benefit from spelling these things out prior to purchase as well.

Joshua Nightshade · 07-14-2008, 02:12 AM

Once again. I never had to file a ticket for anything.

I was charged for the transfer of the island as if I had bought it from someone else.

Aki Shichiroji · 07-14-2008, 02:17 AM

Lillie> yes, i understand that LL is not entirely transparent about these policies, as I've just mentioned. It should also be noted, however, that no matter how 'confusing' the KB or blog can be, those are the policies by which LL tows the line. You know there are exceptions, and so does Josh. But the official policy can sometimes make things difficult for folks who don't know the best way to ask for an exception, or have been doing it one way for a while, not knowing of a better way to undertake change.

If that's what's happened here, or if there's just simply been something overlooked, I'm willing to accept that mistake.

Like I said though, beyond that, i'm really not comfortable with assassinating the character of one of your competitors just because I personally don't have enough information as of yet.

Joshua Nightshade · 07-14-2008, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aki Shichiroji

Like I said though, beyond that, i'm really not comfortable with assassinating the character of one of your competitors just because I personally don't have enough information as of yet.

And this is ultimately my annoyance here, the assumption of malice with no reason.

prinţesă nină · 07-14-2008, 02:21 AM

lillie, how many island have you bought/sold either for yourself or on behalf of others?

Lillie Yifu · 07-14-2008, 02:30 AM

We have 20 sims which have alt-payor EO arrangements. We have over 70 OS sims under management.

Search for "Yedo" on map. That's us.

Lillie Yifu · 07-14-2008, 02:34 AM

"And this is ultimately my annoyance here, the assumption of malice with no reason."

I didn't say malice. I said something was amiss. Either they have lost your order, or they are delaying it for reasons of their own, because the way this works presently would have had you in possession of the island as EM in the usual period of time, and then EO when that came through.

Joshua Nightshade · 07-14-2008, 02:36 AM

Except that it doesn't, as you've even said in your own posts.

The third option is the more likely one, that the delay is on LL's end, and implies no problem on the part of the company who she ordered it from, who's existed in SL longer than you have had an account and has never had an issue warranting any implied accusations at all.

Joshua Nightshade · 07-14-2008, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinţesă nină

lillie: 70
joshua: 1

ok then!

It's not a contest, troll.

Aki Shichiroji · 07-14-2008, 02:37 AM

You have continued to imply that there is something more amiss than what information any of us are privy to. Thank you for your concern, however I have acknowledged that something was up, and have taken measures to learn more, a page back at least. I look forward to hearing from the involved parties soon.

Can we drop this please?

prinţesă nină · 07-14-2008, 02:45 AM

its not a contest unless you want to trot out rezdates hey.
my point is that of authority on the subject. i can either find merit in the words of someone that has conducted 70+ transactions, or i instead can place my stock in the words of someone that has a grand total of one transaction by proxy... furthermore i have to take into account that the person with the single solitary transaction is the same person that insisted that alts required a $10 payment despite being told by everyone that weighed in that they were wrong.
so no, its not a contest, but it certainly speaks volumes regarding authority on the subject.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

It's not a contest, troll.

Joshua Nightshade · 07-14-2008, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinţesă nină

its not a contest unless you want to trot out rezdates hey.
my point is that of authority on the subject. i can either find merit in the words of someone that has conducted 70+ transactions, or i nstead i can put stock in the words of something that a grand total of one transaction by proxy... furthermore i have to take into account that the person with the single solitary transaction is the same person that insisted that alts required a $10 payment despite being told by everyone that weighed in that they were wrong.
so no, its not a contest, but it certainly speaks volumes regarding authority on the subject.

If we're trotting out credentials, mine trumps a lying racist any day on any subject.

prinţesă nină · 07-14-2008, 02:49 AM

now thats germane!

Aki Shichiroji · 07-14-2008, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prinţesă nină

its not a contest unless you want to trot out rezdates hey.
my point is that of authority on the subject. i can either find merit in the words of someone that has conducted 70+ transactions, or i instead can place my stock in the words of someone that has a grand total of one transaction by proxy... furthermore i have to take into account that the person with the single solitary transaction is the same person that insisted that alts required a $10 payment despite being told by everyone that weighed in that they were wrong.
so no, its not a contest, but it certainly speaks volumes regarding authority on the subject.

Quite frankly, I don't care. Both individuals provided opinion based on personal experience. Both opinions are legitimate, but NO ONE in this thread knows the full info behind my problem and I'd really rather not pollute Tyche's thread further with an ongoing argument about my sim when not all the facts are at hand.

Addendum: is it possible to split this discussion about my problem in to another thread?

Lillie Yifu · 07-14-2008, 03:12 AM

"The third option is the more likely one, that the delay is on LL's end, and implies no problem on the part of the company who she ordered it from, who's existed in SL longer than you have had an account and has never had an issue warranting any implied accusations at all."

That's the least likely option, because islands have been ordered and EO status granted relatively smoothly of late, except on the roll back day. I know what island provisioning is like, and you don't.

There are lots of places where things could have gone wrong, but in any event, the company she is working with would know what they are and should have kept her up to date. Not to have done so is bad service.

LL makes many mistakes, and has many problems. However, they also get blamed for many things that are not their fault, or which are partially their fault. One good example is that LL could have had problems with the company's credit card. Partially LL's fault, but a good company would have one, and probably two, back up means of payment. We do, and when LL messed up our billing we shifted to them, ordered the islands, and then shifted back.

Joshua Nightshade · 07-14-2008, 03:13 AM

At Aki's request, and because of your refusal to use quotes like every other poster on this forum, I'm disengaging the discussion with you.

07-14-2008, 02:09 AM	#51 (permalink)
Aki Shichiroji Senior Member Carcinogenic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sylvan Posts: 748 SL Join Date: 7/22/2006 Business: Kitheres & Organica SLShopper Ads: 8 My Mood:	Fundamentally i wish the roles associated with the paying, management, and running of estates was more clearly laid out and the titles for such more accurate to what they actually do, reflecting a better understanding between BOTH the customer and LL as far as what can and can't be done depending on circumstance (IE: whether the region is being developed for a client, whether the region is being leased from a third party, etc) __________________ Also See: Kitheres Industries (scifi avs, skins, and accessories) \| Organica Updates \| Blog

07-14-2008, 02:10 AM	#52 (permalink)
Lillie Yifu Princess Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Yedo Basilica Posts: 56 Business: 22nd Century Yedo	"This is something i feel LL needs to make more clear. I don't think the KB really makes the distinction between the billed avatar and the estate owner outright, as far as I can recall. I do get the impression LL put together these policies together with the idea that the EO must also be the billed account, which isn't always the case. As such, I think this may affect how different companies handle this change. LL may be bending that rule, but I do feel that in doing so it should adjust its published policies to match." The KB is confusing on these issues so let me explain it carefully. The payor is the account billed for an island. By default, and for most of sl, the payor and the Estate Owner are one and the same. Recently LL began allowing avatars to use the alt-payor/Estate Owner functionality to bill one avatar, but have another as the Estate Owner. They describe this as flexibility, but a security risk. The Estate Owner does not own the island, and it does not, presently, cost anything to do this. However, LL does it at their discretion. Presently the avatar to be assigned EO does not even need to be a premium account. Being EO of an openspace sim does not require the person be an island owner, being payor does. In effect, by using the alt-payor functionality, LL has made the difference between payor and EO, which as far as I am told used to be "none," into a more important distinction. The payor counts for concierge line access, the payor can remove the EO by filing a ticket, the payor can force various issues, such as moving an island or moving it into the red zone of the EO's island, without getting a confirming ticket from the EO. They can ask for one to be nice to the EO, but they do not need to. In many places where the KB reads "Estate Owner," what it now means is "payor." In case of any dispute, the payor gets final say. The "Estate Owner," in this arrangement, is not the payor, and does not "own" the island from LL's point of view... except. Except that in the land store the Estate Owner, not the payor, exerts the control of spaces, and someone who is the EO, but not the payor, can place new islands through the land store. They can, I am told, also order new openspace sims if they are EO on a full size sim. Many things in this area are in flux, and it is understandable that people be confused. However, I will repeat the status quo for clarity. The island is ordered. The island is loaded on to the grid. A ticket is submitted as a new order adjustment to set EO to a different avatar. The new EO cannot be blocked by LL. They may have some other internal review. It takes a widely varying amount of time to be processed, from hours to two weeks. After some period of time, for reasons known only to the concierge unit, this ticket is processed, and the new EO has the estate owner privileges. Last edited by Lillie Yifu; 07-14-2008 at 02:28 AM..

07-14-2008, 02:12 AM	#54 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Custom Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 22,574 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	Once again. I never had to file a ticket for anything. I was charged for the transfer of the island as if I had bought it from someone else. __________________ joshuameadows.com \| blog.abstractavatars.com

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07-14-2008, 02:11 AM	#53 (permalink)
Aki Shichiroji Senior Member Carcinogenic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sylvan Posts: 748 SL Join Date: 7/22/2006 Business: Kitheres & Organica SLShopper Ads: 8 My Mood:	By the same token, third party providers would probably benefit from spelling these things out prior to purchase as well.

07-14-2008, 02:17 AM	#55 (permalink)
Aki Shichiroji Senior Member Carcinogenic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sylvan Posts: 748 SL Join Date: 7/22/2006 Business: Kitheres & Organica SLShopper Ads: 8 My Mood:	Lillie> yes, i understand that LL is not entirely transparent about these policies, as I've just mentioned. It should also be noted, however, that no matter how 'confusing' the KB or blog can be, those are the policies by which LL tows the line. You know there are exceptions, and so does Josh. But the official policy can sometimes make things difficult for folks who don't know the best way to ask for an exception, or have been doing it one way for a while, not knowing of a better way to undertake change. If that's what's happened here, or if there's just simply been something overlooked, I'm willing to accept that mistake. Like I said though, beyond that, i'm really not comfortable with assassinating the character of one of your competitors just because I personally don't have enough information as of yet.

07-14-2008, 02:21 AM	#57 (permalink)
prinţesă nină Banned adores her psycho Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: melbourne Posts: 4,360 SLShopper Ads: 1 My Mood:	lillie, how many island have you bought/sold either for yourself or on behalf of others?

07-14-2008, 02:30 AM	#58 (permalink)
Lillie Yifu Princess Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Yedo Basilica Posts: 56 Business: 22nd Century Yedo	We have 20 sims which have alt-payor EO arrangements. We have over 70 OS sims under management. Search for "Yedo" on map. That's us.

07-14-2008, 02:34 AM	#59 (permalink)
Lillie Yifu Princess Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Yedo Basilica Posts: 56 Business: 22nd Century Yedo	"And this is ultimately my annoyance here, the assumption of malice with no reason." I didn't say malice. I said something was amiss. Either they have lost your order, or they are delaying it for reasons of their own, because the way this works presently would have had you in possession of the island as EM in the usual period of time, and then EO when that came through.

07-14-2008, 02:36 AM	#60 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Custom Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 22,574 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	Except that it doesn't, as you've even said in your own posts. The third option is the more likely one, that the delay is on LL's end, and implies no problem on the part of the company who she ordered it from, who's existed in SL longer than you have had an account and has never had an issue warranting any implied accusations at all.

07-14-2008, 02:37 AM	#62 (permalink)
Aki Shichiroji Senior Member Carcinogenic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sylvan Posts: 748 SL Join Date: 7/22/2006 Business: Kitheres & Organica SLShopper Ads: 8 My Mood:	You have continued to imply that there is something more amiss than what information any of us are privy to. Thank you for your concern, however I have acknowledged that something was up, and have taken measures to learn more, a page back at least. I look forward to hearing from the involved parties soon. Can we drop this please?

07-14-2008, 02:49 AM	#65 (permalink)
prinţesă nină Banned adores her psycho Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: melbourne Posts: 4,360 SLShopper Ads: 1 My Mood:	now thats germane!

07-14-2008, 03:12 AM	#67 (permalink)
Lillie Yifu Princess Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Yedo Basilica Posts: 56 Business: 22nd Century Yedo	"The third option is the more likely one, that the delay is on LL's end, and implies no problem on the part of the company who she ordered it from, who's existed in SL longer than you have had an account and has never had an issue warranting any implied accusations at all." That's the least likely option, because islands have been ordered and EO status granted relatively smoothly of late, except on the roll back day. I know what island provisioning is like, and you don't. There are lots of places where things could have gone wrong, but in any event, the company she is working with would know what they are and should have kept her up to date. Not to have done so is bad service. LL makes many mistakes, and has many problems. However, they also get blamed for many things that are not their fault, or which are partially their fault. One good example is that LL could have had problems with the company's credit card. Partially LL's fault, but a good company would have one, and probably two, back up means of payment. We do, and when LL messed up our billing we shifted to them, ordered the islands, and then shifted back.

07-14-2008, 03:13 AM	#68 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Custom Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 22,574 SL Join Date: 10-11-2004 Business: abstract avatars! SLShopper Ads: 16 My Mood:	At Aki's request, and because of your refusal to use quotes like every other poster on this forum, I'm disengaging the discussion with you.