whyroc

Not-readiness, bad controls, and generic avatars sure were big issues, but the biggest factor was perception and marketing strategy (or lack of) and market positioning. Not to mention having to constantly battle the scathing and petty rants and tirades from the peanut gallery of SL other VW bystanders.

I learned some lessons yes, and feel like I've wasted some time of course, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.

I will always take this kind of risk in future because for me the rewards in terms of creativity and continuous learning always outshine the dull stick in the mud mentality. If another promising world pops up you can be sure I will check it out and become involved if it suits my fancy.

The 'I told you so' people are the haters and the boring bunch. Everyone involved with Blue mars as indie developers went into it knowing full well that is might fail, but saw tons of potential there and I commend you all. Great friendships have been made that will prove to be invaluable whatever world we end up on.

Trying to dishearten people by saying they are ignorant for taking risks is proving how comfortable you are with SL mediocrity.

Seriously what skin is it off your back if others had a good time and enjoyed creating for this world and being part of it?

-w

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Coyote Momiji

...

Masami Kuramoto

Avoiding risk is what made Blue Mars mediocre.

Just look at platform support. SL works on Windows, Mac and Linux. Blue Mars works on Windows only because that has been the most risk-free platform for commercial developers by tradition.

Instead of developing their own multi-platform rendering engine, Blue Mars locked themselves firmly into a popular third-party engine based on DirectX. What could possibly go wrong as long as your content looks good, right?

And then of course they monitored content creation and locked out adult content.

And now you come along and say they took a risk. BS. They were as risk-averse as they could possibly be.

Hypatia Callisto

I walked with my feet half a year ago, and loudly protested their direction /to Jim Sink himself/. So I am entitled to my schadenfreude Though I wish it had not come to that, because I knew it would eventually come to this day.

The urge to pull a "Immy-esque" "I like to be provocative" is just as overbearing.

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"To begin with," said the Cat, "a dog's not mad. You grant that?"

"I suppose so," said Alice.

"Well, then," the Cat went on, "you see, a dog growls when it's angry, and wags its tail when it's pleased. Now I growl when I'm pleased, and wag my tail when I'm angry. Therefore I'm mad."

"I call it purring, not growling," said Alice.

"Call it what you like," said the Cat.

Beebo Brink

I'm not sure who this was aimed at, but I didn't see anything I interpreted as insulting developers and users of Blue Mars.

Despite my criticisms of Blue Mars, I always hoped that AR would overcome the technological and cultural hurdles, especially the self-imposed ones, to create a viable virtual world that had a broad appeal. If only a few features had been different, I might well have been in there with several of my friends, like Cale and Hypatia, taking that risk, too. But the avatar customization issue was a deal-breaker for me, personally, because I am so far outside the conventional appearance that was possible in Blue Mars.

For all that we may disparage LL, so far they've gotten far more right in providing a VW than anyone else. That bothers me because if they go, the few alternatives are all less than satisfying.

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Hypatia Callisto

They were the ones they completely concentrated on, to the exclusion of everyone else.

You have a vested interest because you sell clothes there. You have, like every other "srs" business person in SL, tried to nerf features in Blue Mars so that you could improve your short term business gains. And I will refrain from telling the peanut gallery just how nasty you treated other city developers there. But I will let them know that you're no perfect princess, that's for certain.

A successful virtual world is hard to run, and you need to really try to be "everything to everybody" which is a very hard thing to do. I have nothing to gain by my criticism. I've been in virtual worlds since the mid 90s, I may actually know a thing or three that you don't. Especially as I have seen many a virtual world come and go.

Beebo Brink

One of the inherent weaknesses of any VW project is that it is envisioned and implemented by programmers, who tend to skew very heavily toward the "no social skills/cues" end of the personal interaction spectruem. They focus on neato-whiz-bang technology rather than on cultural features and are blind-sided by issues that matter to non-programmers.

I'd be curious to see another entry into the VW field that was driven by someone who was socially savvy and wrote requirements to support that cutural vision.

Hypatia Callisto

Yeah, me too. And

I don't know, I'm not ready to write off Blue Mars yet. I may be critical, but I'm also hopeful. I think they may have shed some of their idealism, which I think is a good thing, not a bad thing. I'll wait and see what happens.

What I do believe, is that Blue Mars really needs to succeed, or its going to be a problem for /all/ virtual worlds, if it doesn't.

Hypatia Callisto

Having spent a good deal of time in the Poser community, I do not think that's an obstacle. Rather, what was an obstacle was an inability to trade for skills that you don't have, and to delegate powers of the City developers to Block devs. (this impacted scripting) A framework for working in groups didn't really exist. A dev to dev marketplace didn't exist. City Designers went to the wider 3d community to buy assets from sites such as Turbosquid.

Communities like Turbosquid, DAZ, Renderosity, Content Paradise, and now the Unity Store shows that people who specialise in different areas can sell their work to others.

Another major obstacle, and still is an obstacle - is that people still cannot really "do" that much in Blue Mars. I still cannot easily set up a social venue in Blue Mars. What I have known for a long time, is that people do not just buy "stuff" because they can. They buy stuff, such as customizing their avatar, their living spaces, because they can do things socially in the world - a place to show off, to do things with others. The social aspects of SL are what feeds the content economy, and it's the case in every virtual world I've ever been in. Even in the Poser communities, having a place to share your artwork is what feeds the content marketplaces.

Nika Talaj

I wonder if there is a set of things LL could learn from BM? I have to say I envied BM the choice of LUA for scripting. Seems like customizing LUA so that it "knows" about SL prims, avatars, etc. would have been a better route than inventing LSL.

Yeah, yeah mono. Bah.

Hindsight is 20/20.

whyroc

Not you, I have actually valued your comments over the last year(s) about BM and I know you have given serious thought to it.

whyroc

Not AR, but indie devs who took a risk with the platform. Millions were spent on some of the cities, they may still succeed, but for me its three times bitten I may be stubborn but not stupid.

Zipper

No mac access.

Masami Kuramoto

BM content is mesh content which can be used anywhere else. SL content is specific to SL and will largely be lost if the platform implodes. So I'd say the risk for content creators in SL is bigger than elsewhere, at least until mesh arrives on the main grid.

Angela Talamasca

Well, I don't see the whole blue mars thing as a risk. People made choices based upon whatever goals they want to achieve.

As for me? I do not regret my choice. I learned tons in the area of 3D modeling, though I have no where near the skills some of the 3D modelers posting to this thread, have (in fact, I still pretty much suck when it comes to 3D modeling!) I learned lua. I lurv lua! I learned how to not only use but make kick-ass environs with the cryengine SDK. Importantly, I learned something that has not a thing to do with the platform. Something that I've meant to blog about but end up backburnering bc I simpy do not have enough hours in a day. And that is, the amazing knowledge at our fingertips. Tons and tons of "how-to" vids and forum discussions. for not only the various 3D tools but for cryengine as well. While this may seem common place to some of you "youngsters" for us old farts... well, okay, for me... it's impressive as hell.

Hmm.... I guess that is what I learned. That there are some really kewl people who are happy to share their knowledge. And that is the thing that is exciting and engaging. Regardless of where I'm at, what platform I've chosen. Being able to share knowledge. To say, hey, check this out. Or, lemme know if you need some help on that. To then be able to stand back, and see the final result? And even the in-between screw ups? It's... well... quite fun. So, no, I don't see my choice as a risk. I see it as an adventure.

As for the schadenfreude dancers? Hey, whatever floats your boat. If it makes you feel good that whatever VW platforms others have chosen are failures? I say party on. Have a merry old time. As for me, I still have tons of learning to do.

/me toddles off to finalize my lua framework and finish up my blue mars cryengine kinect integration. ^_~

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Hypatia Callisto

YAY

The good thing is that none of our skills learning Blue Mars have been wasted - they translate to Cryengine 3 and just about any other game engine.

So I don't think I lost very much, except some money on an outpost, but I bailed out of that early so I didn't lose that much. Probably it is a net gain, overall, when I factor in all I've learned in developing items for Blue Mars.

DanielRavenNest

You have any idea how much it costs to develop a graphics engine from scratch? The Cryengine2 license was half a million for the full one that BM got. That's way cheap. And it was not just the engine, it was the Sandbox 2 level editor, which enables other people to put together places.

I would love for the SL graphics engine and building tools to be as good as what I have to play with on Mars, in fact I will push for some of the features on the SL developer list I belong to.

As far as what did I lose by going to Mars for a while? Nothing in my book. I made lots of friends, and learned a lot, and that's what's important.

Desmond Shang

I'm going to hold back on detailed commentary from my perspective on this for now, due to some RL constraints. Which limit me from getting all the information I need for about a week (I am traveling and my access is limited).

But I would say this: Blue Mars started before the 2008 recession. Its key funding period was smack through the worst investment environment since the great depression. In my view that was the over~riding factor, bar none.

* * * * *

I believe Jim did his very best. I've met Jim personally, and others who were deeply involved and 'all in.' These are people who get the big picture. Perhaps some features were out of reach for now. But with capital, not out of reach forever. These people have been very successful in other ventures, and will be again.

Nondisclosures being what they are, I can't support my view with sources and data. But if anyone thinks I've got any shred of business competence (enough to clear 100k+ USD from SL without too much trouble and still be in the black today in the land business) ~ I can assure you, I have a deep, deep respect for the Avatar Reality team, both present and past.

They did want to add a vast variety of features. But you have to start somewhere. I must say I sure hoped to see more, faster. But without dedicated, recurring investment it's a serious challenge to keep a creative professional staff working. And where was anyone going to get capital in 2009 or 2010? Or 2011 for that matter.

I'm not quite sure what their current direction is. It has changed in the past, it may change again. It looks like they have some very, very serious challenges ahead.

When I have sufficient data I'll offer a solid opinion, whatever that may be. It's easy to be either a naysayer or a fanboy. It's another thing to do the research. I must confess I don't have enough information to have an opinion going forward yet.

* * * * *

In the meantime: if a new, cutting edge platform comes out anywhere, rest assured that I'll be taking a hard look at it. Simply because: no guts, no glory. No risk, no reward.

By definition, if you fear the common man's wisdom of "I told you so," you'll never get past the common man's paycheck. One *has* to do something most people don't believe in, to break new ground. Imagine if Steve Jobs believed the naysayers about anything from Apple Computer itself (a troubled company once) to the success~odds of tablet computers in the last 20 years.

There will be a stunning, compelling, immersive, effective virtual world someday. It may be an upstart, it may be Second Life 10.0. But whatever it is, rest assured I'll be in there early. And just like with Blue Mars, I'll come out of nowhere when you least expect it.

Count on it.

Ann Otoole

I agree with this. I also will add that if you cobble your product with limitations bound in US political correctness culture then your project needs to be limited to the US political correctness culture for obvious reasons. And it will fail.

I don't think we are out of the woods yet. The entire concept of having a free and open internet is currently being questioned by governments. It appears there is a lot of interest in changing the landscape to underpowered limited mobile devices that can only connect to tightly controlled networks with limited options as to available content. Under this new "internet order" there will be no "virtual worlds". So don't be supporting any stupid politicians. Instead openly operate against them to show to the world their stupidity and corruption.

We won't get to the future with the current 2 party system in the USA.

Gaga Gracious

I followed Blue Mars right from the beginning and I loved the graphics. It was a big download but once there I had no problems and found it a smooth and easy experience (I do have a good PC and DSL). Second Life is way behind on both performance and graphics so I had high hopes for BM. The client was crap though and never really improved much over time and, apart from a casual wander around, there was never really anything to do or much to buy. And it was PG. The early adopters obviously enjoyed working with it and the mesh-based avatars looked great from a clothes designer point of view but for the fact everything had to be approved. It certainly was never a start-up and go world like SL or Opensim.

I think the secret of any successful virtual world is they have to have something so compelling that one must go there or they must let you make the world what you want it to be and give you the tools to do it right there in the world. That was Second Life's slogan "Your imagination, your world" and I think Opensim has the potential to actually deliver on that slogan simply because it's open source while Linden Labs seems to have pulled too far away from it to qualify now. Blue Mars never had if from the word go.

Hypatia Callisto

<relevant comment about Blue Mars>

<somewhat irrelevant comment about politics affecting Blue Mars>

<whacked out conspiracy theory about politics having nothing to do with Blue Mars>

<conclusion about politics, far removed from reality or the current subject matter>

No. Mobile devices are their own device category, and do not compete with desktop PCs. When I am on the go, I do not lug my desktop with me, and a laptop is simply bulky.

The issue is that a lot of people bought cheapass desktops that are essentially doorstops /for entertainment/, and are ditching them not for newer doorstops, but for computers that are more portable.

The gaming PC is not going away, and the gamer with decent hardware was never all that attracted to Second Life anyway. The same problem affected Blue Mars, because these users want a different experience. 3 million users at peak concurrency on Steam says you are way off base on the future of PCs in gaming.

What game engine techology like Unity and UDK usher in, is the ability to make /one game/ then publish versions of it to PC and mobile gaming devices. Sitting at your computer all day long isn't good for you anyway.

Ann Otoole

Stick it

Hypatia Callisto

Opensim has nothing to do with gaming either.

Blue Mars doesn't want to be an Opensim. There's nothing wrong with it, and comparing it to Opensim is like comparing leopards to pine trees.

Hypatia Callisto

Sorry to disappoint you, I own a vagina and a clitoris and a pair of 40 DDD boobs in real life. (I was also born with that vagina and clitoris, but the boobs came much later.)

And the men are damn happy I do!

infiniview Merit

They wont be limited to connecting only to those networks unless the device was provided by that network. Although it does continue to surprise me that Jobs persists in taking such a draconian approach to user freedoms as he has with the iphone and ipad. Especially when I reflect on the 1984 commercial of the past.

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