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Old 02-24-2012, 06:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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New sections in TPV policy
From Third Party Viewer Policy Changes - Second Life:

Quote:
Here are the new sections of the policy:

2.a.iii : You must not provide any feature that circumvents any privacy protection option made available through a Linden Lab viewer or any Second Life service.
2.i : You must not display any information regarding the computer system, software, or network connection of any other Second Life user.
2.j : You must not include any information regarding the computer system, software, or network connection of the user in any messages sent to other viewers, except when explicitly elected by the user of your viewer.
2.k : You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.
This would seem to knock out a few features in some third party viewers - but I am guessing that LL kept the wording deliberately vague so that they could interpret it as they chose.

Reaction from Jessica for Phoenix/Firestorm at http://www.phoenixviewer.com/.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:06 PM   #2 (permalink)
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New TPV policy changes
Third Party Viewer Policy Changes - Second Life

Im concerned with ...

Quote:
2.k : You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.
Does this mean things like RLV and client side AO are against the TPV policy? does this mean any feature LL does not included can no longer be included in a TPV compliant viewer? what about parcel windlight in phoenix and firestorm? Did LL just do yet a another ill thought out policy change? or perhaps this is intentional?
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:10 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Basically, no viewer tags, nor parcel windlight and such. LL was having a temper tantrum about certain viewers snagging stuff from their project branches and releasing their stuff before them (you know who you are), so this isn't all that surprising. They've been prissy about TPVs for a while now.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:14 PM   #4 (permalink)
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2)k basically prohibits innovation by TPV viewers. If this was always in place stuff like bouncing boobs and parcel windlight would've never happened.

I have no idea what business advantage they see in preventing innovation.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
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My belief is that they see all this work going into TPVs and they'd rather try and persuade users to work with them on developing LL's viewer (i.e. lots of stuff being developed for them for free along the lines that they want) - after all they no longer have a viewer development team as such, just Oz to co-ordinate open source input.

This is all part of the ongoing policy to transform Second Life from being a community to being a product with customers.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:30 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitomi Tiponi View Post
My belief is that they see all this work going into TPVs and they'd rather try and persuade users to work with them on developing LL's viewer (i.e. lots of stuff being developed for them for free along the lines that they want) - after all they no longer have a viewer development team as such, just Oz to co-ordinate open source input.
That cannot work right there. Oz Linden's only real competence is alienating the best opensource developers and making them never want to contribute to Linden Lab again. They would have to find someone with more clue than arrogance for the task Oz is doing.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:33 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa View Post
That cannot work right there. Oz Linden's only real competence is alienating the best opensource developers and making them never want to contribute to Linden Lab again. They would have to find someone with more clue than arrogance for the task Oz is doing.
I tend to agree with that. I'm sure that Oz is a really nice guy but he is not the right person for the job he is in - he certainly doesn't give me the "Hey, I'd really like to help you" feeling. Compare him to Oskar on the server side, he often needs help with testing stuff, and he is prepared to give extra info (often bringing in other Lindens) and have a laugh while doing it - that makes you glad to help.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:35 PM   #8 (permalink)
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All the development work goes into third-party viewers because very few people think LL have a clue about developing their own viewer. This policy change is the equivalent of LL taking their ball and going home. Yes, this will end well.
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:41 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 02-24-2012, 06:42 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Thread in alternative clients section of SLU - http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/alternative-sl-clients/69989-new-sections-tpv-policy.html
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:03 PM   #11 (permalink)
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I'm sure there's more than a Linden or two at the lab who have regrets the viewer was made open source.

It looks like they want to reign in the beast somewhat -- the viewer "market" is quite fragmented after all.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyotl View Post
Basically, no viewer tags, nor parcel windlight and such.
I was wondering the same thing about parcel windlight, but apparently it's been given a pass.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiko Fazuku View Post
Does this mean things like RLV and client side AO are against the TPV policy?
RLVa is safe as it is user opt in, the most we will have to do is remove the viewer name in response to version requests. Toy devs that check for named viewers will have to update.

Worst case, a few toys break. But new toys are always a good idea, right
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshiko Fazuku View Post
Third Party Viewer Policy Changes - Second Life

Im concerned with ...



Does this mean things like RLV and client side AO are against the TPV policy? does this mean any feature LL does not included can no longer be included in a TPV compliant viewer? what about parcel windlight in phoenix and firestorm? Did LL just do yet a another ill thought out policy change? or perhaps this is intentional?
Well… in my books it's an attempt to get rid of TPV entirely through the backdoor.

  • V1-UI = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • UI different to the LL viewer in any way = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • different UI skins = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • RLV/RLVa = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • client side AO = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • parcel windlight = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • 3D graphics like in the late Kirstens (the one you'd need that red/green binocle for) = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • access via Smartphone (iPhone, Android) = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • etc
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:14 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eighthdwarf Checchinato View Post
Well… in my books it's an attempt to get rid of TPV entirely through the backdoor.

  • V1-UI = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • UI different to the LL viewer in any way = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • different UI skins = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • RLV/RLVa = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • client side AO = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • parcel windlight = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • 3D graphics like in the late Kirstens (the one you'd need that red/green binocle for) = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • access via Smartphone (iPhone, Android) = not a feature in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • etc
I don't think you've understood 2.k

Oz specifically said anything client side, UI, RLV etc. is not affected by 2.k.

They don't want TPVs to introduce new in-world content and effects that the rest of the grid can't see. Weird custom attachment points, different region behavior, custom object types.

They don't care about UI, building tools, RLV, etc. etc.
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Last edited by Chalice Yao; 02-24-2012 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:17 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda Rage View Post
I was wondering the same thing about parcel windlight, but apparently it's been given a pass.
It's technically is against the new policy. Oz said however that it won't be enforced in the case of parcel windlight because he's going to work on implementing it officially.

But features like that won't be permitted in the future.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa View Post
2)k basically prohibits innovation by TPV viewers. If this was always in place stuff like bouncing boobs and parcel windlight would've never happened.

I have no idea what business advantage they see in preventing innovation.
Exactly THIS.

Well… in my books it's an attempt to get rid of all TPVs entirely through the backdoor.
  • V1-UI = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • UI different to the LL viewer in any way = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • profile floaters instead of web profiles = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • different UI skins to choose from = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • RLV/RLVa = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • client side AO = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • "Worn" tab in inventory = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • parcel windlight = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • 3D graphics like in the late Kirstens (the one you'd need that red/green binocle for) = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • access via iPhone or Android = not a feature provided in the latest LL release, hence against 2.k
  • etcetc
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
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http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/gen...ml#post1500758

Oz specifically said anything client side, UI, RLV etc. is not affected by 2.k.

They don't want TPVs to introduce new in-world content and effects that the rest of the grid can't see. Weird custom attachment points, different region behavior, custom object types.

They don't care about UI, building tools, RLV, etc. etc.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:24 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Reading between the lines, then, would this mean that TPVs will be forced to become clones of the official viewer in terms of features?

Edit: Chalice answered me, lol.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:24 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:25 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Audio recording of the meeting (which was in voice):

http://lecs.opensource.secondlife.co...2012-02-24.mp3
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:26 PM   #22 (permalink)
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*runs in all off topic*

What the hell happened to your avatar?!

Am I going to have to make a new thread?!
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:29 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalice Yao View Post
They don't want TPVs to introduce new in-world content and effects that the rest of the grid can't see. Weird custom attachment points, different region behavior, custom object types.
I can certainly see why they'd be against that, it's perfectly understandable.


The problem is, Linden Lab seems so unwilling to implement these features themselves until their presence in a TPV shows that it can be done, people want it, LL just didn't want to put in the effort themselves.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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*runs in all off topic*

What the hell happened to your avatar?!

Am I going to have to make a new thread?!
I'm going minimalist for the time being. Don't worry, I'm sure it'll pass soon enough.
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Old 02-24-2012, 07:31 PM   #25 (permalink)
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They don't care about UI, building tools, RLV, etc. etc.
…YET.
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