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Old 03-06-2012, 07:22 AM   #2376 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kara Spengler View Post
It is a term used in software development. Basically it means a day when your software is not backwards compatible. It also, in this sense, means a point that is 'special' for some reason, usually setting a wall that only some people can get beyond.
Thanks. I understand that. And am I correct in thinking you're using it in the second sense --"some people can't update to the latest version of Phoenix because it doesn't work on their machines, for whatever reason"?
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:25 AM   #2377 (permalink)
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This thread has me seriously considering upgrading to 7-64bit from Vista64.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:27 AM   #2378 (permalink)
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This thread has me seriously considering upgrading to 7-64bit from Vista64.
Do it. Eeet ees nice.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:32 AM   #2379 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
Thanks. I understand that. And am I correct in thinking you're using it in the second sense --"some people can't update to the latest version of Phoenix because it doesn't work on their machines, for whatever reason"?
Exactly. It is unfortunate but it happened. At the time of the change people were already on a TPV version so there was no problem other than not seeing mesh. Now if the Lindens changed the rules retroactively those versions could not be allowed suddenly and people's only option to stay in SL is using another client if they can not upgrade. Even if they can, migrating to another client is not a painless option, especially for non-technical users. For many in the cannot-upgrade-or-change category that is not an option.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:15 AM   #2380 (permalink)
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Windows 2000 is the best version of Windows Microsoft ever shipped [...]
Windows 2000 did not have the stellar support for DirectX that XP did.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:24 AM   #2381 (permalink)
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In regard to mesh...I understand that it brought about some fundamental changes to the rendering engine, so I suppose that it is not possible to add a simple on/off switch to disable mesh completely, for those who are unable to use mesh viewers.

That said, I wonder why Phoenix in its mesh incarnations would make computers crash. Is this not simply a sign of code that is in need of further debugging or other means of stabilising? I really do not know, so I am curious...
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:35 AM   #2382 (permalink)
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In regard to mesh...I understand that it brought about some fundamental changes to the rendering engine, so I suppose that it is not possible to add a simple on/off switch to disable mesh completely, for those who are unable to use mesh viewers.
..
Actually: There is an option for estates to not support mesh. If you use a mesh viewer and have mesh attachments and teleport to one of these regions, your meshes turn back into boxes while you are there. Now, the server is telling the viewer it doesn't' support mesh, but it must be the viewer that decides to render the meshes as a non-mesh viewer would; so I'd think it should be entirely possible to create a viewer option to do it whenever you want.

Wither or not that would comply with recent ToS changes, I don't know.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:49 AM   #2383 (permalink)
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Actually: There is an option for estates to not support mesh. If you use a mesh viewer and have mesh attachments and teleport to one of these regions, your meshes turn back into boxes while you are there. Now, the server is telling the viewer it doesn't' support mesh, but it must be the viewer that decides to render the meshes as a non-mesh viewer would; so I'd think it should be entirely possible to create a viewer option to do it whenever you want.

Wither or not that would comply with recent ToS changes, I don't know.
I don't think that is an option (if it's still there -- I can't get in to check right now). It's never worked, at least not on regular estates, and the jira about it not working was closed as "expected behavior": https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2341
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:01 AM   #2384 (permalink)
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This thread has me seriously considering upgrading to 7-64bit from Vista64.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:07 AM   #2385 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
I don't think that is an option (if it's still there -- I can't get in to check right now). It's never worked, at least not on regular estates, and the jira about it not working was closed as "expected behavior": https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SH-2341
Ah. But still, my point was it's possible for the viewer to mimic non-mesh viewer behavior: you can test this by taking your viewer to the beta grid, go to a mesh sim, your avatar is fine, teleport to one of the non-mesh sims (like the public sandboxes) and your mesh attachments automatically change to how everyone else sees you there. It's got to be the viewer doing that, I think.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:11 AM   #2386 (permalink)
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Exactly. It is unfortunate but it happened. At the time of the change people were already on a TPV version so there was no problem other than not seeing mesh. Now if the Lindens changed the rules retroactively those versions could not be allowed suddenly and people's only option to stay in SL is using another client if they can not upgrade. Even if they can, migrating to another client is not a painless option, especially for non-technical users. For many in the cannot-upgrade-or-change category that is not an option.
So the problem is, then, that some people have difficulty running any viewer that's capable of seeing what is now a standard content type.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:12 AM   #2387 (permalink)
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Ah. But still, my point was it's possible for the viewer to mimic non-mesh viewer behavior: you can test this by taking your viewer to the beta grid, go to a mesh sim, your avatar is fine, teleport to one of the non-mesh sims (like the public sandboxes) and your mesh attachments automatically change to how everyone else sees you there. It's got to be the viewer doing that, I think.
Or is it the sim telling the viewer what it's seeing? I ask because I don't know.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:07 AM   #2388 (permalink)
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Windows 2000 did not have the stellar support for DirectX that XP did.
I was able to run every version of DirectX required by Second Life on it.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:20 AM   #2389 (permalink)
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I wonder if there are some poor souls trying to connect to SL using dialup... (probably likely)
I don't get stats on such, but I have heard from support and several Lindens that there are many that do. LL doesn't even officially support dialup, satalite, nor any high legacy ISP for use with SL.

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This thread has me seriously considering upgrading to 7-64bit from Vista64.
Vista should be burnt in a fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
So saying it's a "flag day" is another way of saying "some people can't get the latest mesh version of Phoenix to run on their machines, or it runs unacceptably slowly"?

I was wondering if it was some sort of technical term to do with setting flags that stopped you updating to another version, or rolling back an update to an earlier version or whatever, and that's what was confusing me.
flag day


On Monday I'll check what the usage of the pre-mesh version still is and see if its worth justifying an update. As of last week (week before that really), about 75% have so far updated to 1600 from 1185, which is still within the typical slow update adoption rate for Phoenix.

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Old 03-06-2012, 12:38 PM   #2390 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolly View Post
That said, I wonder why Phoenix in its mesh incarnations would make computers crash. Is this not simply a sign of code that is in need of further debugging or other means of stabilising? I really do not know, so I am curious...
When LL first release mesh the code caused huge performance hits depending on your system. This is what was ported over and then incorporated into phoenix. Later fixes were done to mesh to bring the FPS to tolerable levels but AFAIK those fixes never made it to the 1.x viewers with the mesh patch. So even though mesh is more-or-less fixed (well, at least tolerable) right now the viewers that only got the initial version wound up taking a performance hit for their troubles.

Since the code is so integral probably you would need to fork each of the 1.x viewers into mesh viewers and nonmesh viewers and test all future releases on both branches. Which would be more than a headache than it would be worth with users being urged onto the 2.x and 3.x code base now.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:43 PM   #2391 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
So the problem is, then, that some people have difficulty running any viewer that's capable of seeing what is now a standard content type.
Although a pretty minor component. Since the introduction of mesh I have only encountered it on the grid 3 times. An avatar with a sign saying it was mesh, a builder that created a test object, and a store selling some mesh clothing I was only in because I was talking to some friends who went there.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:47 PM   #2392 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andromeda Rage View Post
I wonder if there are some poor souls trying to connect to SL using dialup... (probably likely)
My first time connecting to the grid to meet Marianne:

I had to wait a few months for the available networking at my building to catch up to what I needed. When I did SL was the 2nd thing I did on the connection (1st was a speed test) and, yes, I remembered my password.

Last edited by Kara Spengler; 03-06-2012 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #2393 (permalink)
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Although a pretty minor component. Since the introduction of mesh I have only encountered it on the grid 3 times. An avatar with a sign saying it was mesh, a builder that created a test object, and a store selling some mesh clothing I was only in because I was talking to some friends who went there.
But I thought you said you normally run Firestorm. Assuming it's a version that can see mesh, how would you know, unless you were looking closely, if someone's wearing mesh boots or pants, or whatever, or if a build is part mesh and part prim and sculpty?

And certainly mesh petites are very popular.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:24 PM   #2394 (permalink)
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I don't think people using mesh viewers realize how many mesh objects they see, it's not even until you see a rigged mesh you really think mesh, non-rigged meshes always get passed as nice looking sculpts. Similarly, for non-mesh users, not every mesh creates ugly metaphor-breaking cubes, some scenes still look ok in their glitched state and go unnoticed.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:36 PM   #2395 (permalink)
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XP64 has its own bucket of crunchy fail chum, which is tosses overboard to summon fail sharks. So even if it's *not* running out of memory, it's got all kinds of other excuses to bring the average down.
My, that is the nicest way that I've ever heard someone call XP64 a steamy moose loaf in the snow. Well done, very well done.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:00 PM   #2396 (permalink)
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This thread has me seriously considering upgrading to 7-64bit from Vista64.
Don't take the stats as a good enough reason. Consider that most computers still running 64-bit Vista have pre-2008 GPUs.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:06 PM   #2397 (permalink)
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Later fixes were done to mesh to bring the FPS to tolerable levels but AFAIK those fixes never made it to the 1.x viewers with the mesh patch.
Even Singularity Release with Mesh performs at double the speed of Phoenix with Mesh usually, although we released same weekend or so.

And we're constantly merging newest Linden renderer into upcoming release, although it has its problems so far, serious problems, which are holding us back. The tough ones are upstream bugs and not our own.

I'm fairly certain something is being done in CoolVL/Phoenix too, so you might see tolerable performance with current CoolVL and upcoming Phoenix too.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:28 PM   #2398 (permalink)
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Users with ancient coal-burning machines could switch to leaner TPVs, and it would give users time to upgrade gradually.

(up to page 104 now ... I'm closing in!!)

Soen, the problem with that is that there -are- some bells and whistles that I've only seen in Phoenix/Firestorm.

For instance, having both the sim-wide radar and being able to not have my AV 'look' where my camera is pointing.

The first one I need as an officer of the sim I'm regularly at. I like being able to TP to a troublemaker rather than have to hunt for them. It doesn't happen often, but when I need it, I need it 'now'.

The second one annoys me no end. I HATE my head bobbing to a fro. I hate it more than canned vegetables. So much so I decided that the trade off for the true online status was worth it.

There are others, to be sure, but those two spring to mind and were largely responsible for me going back to Phoenix after the Emerald debacle. Well that and LGG joining Phoenix.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:36 PM   #2399 (permalink)
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I don't know about the sim-wide radar, but the ability to stop your head following the camera is available in most TPVs, I think.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:43 PM   #2400 (permalink)
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Don't take the stats as a good enough reason. Consider that most computers still running 64-bit Vista have pre-2008 GPUs.
All that means is you don't get the annoying Aero effects, no?
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