Jessica lyon

To be fair.. none of us knew it was going on until it was exposed to everyone. We learned of these things at the same time as everyone else. Had we known about it prior.. then I can understand that being used against us. We didn't know about it, that's the point.

Thorn

Tonya,

I wouldn't bother with Elysium she will not change her mind about your viewer.
I was one of those that swore i would never try a 3rd party viewer and yet I use several of them now. In my opinion are designed a better than the Linden Labs viewers.
It really is going to come down to what people want to do in sl and which viewer works best for those purposes.

Jessica lyon

It's unfortunate that we are seen as guilty by association. As though we had prior knowledge that KDU and the DDOS were happening. The fact is none of us had any idea. Fractured, Phox, Skills, Discrete and maybe Arabella had a secret "Squirrel chat" going on in skype that none of us were privy too.

I can assure you, had we known this crap was being thought up, or considered, or executed things would have happened differently.

Honestly, we had no idea this stuff was happening until we found out at the same time as everyone else. We didn't have access to the KDU source code, we didn't have access to the website where the login page was hosted. We didn't know.

Jack Abraham

It's only a gay slur because of an accident of gender. If Joshua were female it'd be misogynistic. I'm sure there's some label for it if Cristiano's female, but I'm not sure what it is. Perhaps it's an artifact of my straight male privilege, but I think you're borrowing offense in this singular case.

Tonya Souther

And remember that the one who did the exposing, LordGregGreg, later joined the Phoenix team. If we were tainted unto the tenth generation, as Elysium Hynes appears to believe, then that would mean he's tainted as well, wouldn't it? And yet he's held up as the pure, shining hero as though the taint doesn't apply to him.

Siana Gearz

Can i have some taint-free taint too? I hear it's all in vogue these days.

Beezle Warburton

To hell with Conan.

We're well into Springer territory.

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Elysium Hynes

My issue Jessica and try to understand this, LGG left emerald, pretty fast this shows me his threshold for what he acepts when it comes to ethical issues, so did chalice, it took LL actually make demands and block the viewer for you to fork and even so you know how it was advertised, in the meanwhile there voice recordings of Phox and Arabella showing their tru colours. this lasted a whole week Jessica, it didnīt happen in hours you know that very well. You see itīs not being used against you but it certainly shows that your threshold is very diferent from theirs.

__________________
I have a blog with stuffs in it Sium
You can also check my Flickr or my Pinterest for event covering.

miranda

Strange ...
In a general way ( all kind of slurs ),
I have always thoought that slurs were caused by the words ,by the thoughts , by the actions , so by the people .
Never i have thought they were caused by accident .

Elysium Hynes

Correct me if iīm wrong, but didnīt LGG leave Emerald because of the Library thing, and days before the DDOS was even discovered by a user and censored on the Emerald forums, he was also the only dev to expose the situation, while the Emerald team was saying this is no big deal, just a game.

Misty Harley

I think the problem is that......not so much that you didn't know....it's that when each small piece came out....you didn't know. Granted, this might not make sense and it's all in hindsight and as much as Tonya wants to scream HATE from the roof tops....it's distrust for some of us.

Each time one of the bad dev's did something....you guys didn't know.

Again, hindsight.....but because there WERE dev's that jumped ship when the first 'didn't know...' came out....it's one of those 'how many didn't knows....' are there before someone finally says ENOUGH and gets the hell out of dodge.

yeah...my wording is confusing.

Jessica, if you found out today that dev's were screwing around....and you didn't know...would you behave the same way you did when Emeralds 'didn't knows...' came out. I think that is what makes many of us wary. You were very concerned about your user base and leaving them high and dry to not quit that it's almost like you turned a blind eye to the many 'didn't knows' that were occurring one after another until LL finally stepped in.

And being realistic...this could happen to ANY viewer. So I'm not 'picking on you' as much as I am asking a question.

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Jessica lyon

My threshold was right in line with LGG's. We just had different ideas on how to handle the problem. Like I stated on page 49, I thought I could save the body of work by eliminating the individuals who caused the problem. LGG thought it would be better to just fork right away.

Elysium Hynes

Oh he was also the only dev who cared enough about the viewer users and actually thoutgh them how to eliminate the files in the library.

Tonya Souther

But now LGG's part of the same nasty eeeeevil Phoenix team that you so love to bash, Elysium. Doesn't that affect his glowing white knight stature in your eyes? Or do you have no shred of consistency at all?

Elysium Hynes

So do you see why i have serious reservations about this Jessica? where where you protecting Emerald users when the Library issues apeared? LGG was protecting itīs users.

Elysium Hynes

You see i am very consistent in my actions, LGG did nothing but protect the actual users, his actions speak for themselves, because he did act. He doesnīt need to pull out the names of his friends in his defense or to claim they are keeping him in place.

Jessica lyon

One of the things I've always tried to do in life is learn lessons from everything. And from everything bad there is good, and from everything good there is bad. I learned a lot of lessons being on the Emerald team, I've put those lessons into practice here.

I have things in place to make sure nothing like this happens again.

The phoenix project has a checkin/checkout system for EVERYTHING including the website. This way anything anyone does can be seen, and backed out easily, nothing can be snuck in. LGG, Myself, Techwolf and Arrehn have shared access to the server. This is to make sure no one person has control. Our repository and all other aspects of the project is watched like a hawk by members of this team, LL and the community at large. The fact that there are a lot of folks who would love to see us screw up are watching, makes me comfortable.. but not complacent.

We check each others work, each others commits to the website, our data pages, login page. viewer repositories. etc.

Our wiki, code repositories, website, jira, data files are all on individually secured sections so that if any one of them gets hacked, the hacker doesn't have access to anything else.

Basically the whole system is set up so that it can't be corrupted without everyone else finding out. Redundancy on top of redundancy.

Further, I have screened every single individual on this team. I approve everyone who gets to join the team and I do my homework before they're allowed in.

I have a lot of measures in place to ensure nothing like emerald gate every happens on this project. Because should something happen.. it's over. Open source in SL will be over. Over my dead body will anything like emeraldgate happen on this project. I take the integrity of this project VERY seriously and hold it to the utmost priority.

Jack Belvedere

They did attempt to downplay it big time, they actually termed it "Silly":

Two weeks ago, amid an atmosphere of pride and boasting about Emerald traffic, a silly idea was hatched. This idea was to target a blog owned by a creator of a malicious viewer, and boast of the traffic Emerald has captured. The method for doing this was to add links to the Emerald log in page linked to said blog. Each time anyone logged in, our page loaded up and also the other page loaded up – simply to show off our volume of traffic. This was not a DDoS. This was a poor attempt at boasting that failed miserably. Once we discovered this, these links were deleted and the dev concerned was disciplined. The entire Emerald Team offers it’s sincere apologies for concern, panic, worry, mistrust and disappointment felt by our users because of this. I can most strongly assure you that this will not happen again.
Sincerely,
The Emerald Dev Team Emerald Shennanigans Ŧ Arabella's Amblings

Misty makes excellent points about trust and about all the denial aspects from the former Emerald, now Phoenix team. It's akin to how you'd feel if some politician kept getting caught in scandal after scandal from his political team and his only excuse was "I didn't know." Ok, so you're either really dumb and blind, or you're lying, Mr Politician. Either way, don't expect my vote.

And the thread submerges into unintelligent attacks on the forum owner, gay slurs, and re-writes of history. Wonderful. Well, what do you do. We got awfully far away from the original topic (and from pancakes).

Tonya Souther

But you think the entire Phoenix team is tainted because of what Frac and Phox did. Never mind that neither one has ever been involved with the Phoenix project. So, when LGG joined the team, doesn't the taint apply to him too? After all, you apply it to me, and I wasn't around when either the DDoS or the library thing happened.

Jessica lyon

It's because of that ^ to which I have the rule.. if we screw up.. we own up. No downplaying or twisting the facts.. we own it, period. Incentive to not screw up.

Btw.. I absolutely didn't approve of that post by Arabella, and at that time I was in the process of trying to take over the project.

Misty Harley

Thanks for that explanation Jessica and I wasn't questioning your back up's at all and although glad to see you have them in place (and knew most of them were there) it's an unfortunate part of life...that bad things can still happen no matter what form of back up you have.

I do not think for a moment that your coding has anything nefarious in it.

But it doesn't really answer my question. Let me see if I could word it properly and really any dev from any viewer can answer this if they want. Jessica gets to be in the hot seat only because of her past but anyone could find themselves having to make these type of decisions:

If you discovered someone tried to pass or did pass hidden nefarious coding into your viewer.....would the users of said viewer be subject to 'didn't knows....' until such time LL had to step in and say enough. Which is exactly what our past experience was with you. Many "didn't knows..." while others jumped ship and you stayed (reasons for staying understood..not wanting to leave people in a lurch).

That is my primary concern at this point and I think others as well. Not really who's dev'ing for you....not your coding and not the back up's you have in place. But more so what would you do if faced with similar situations today.

Elysium Hynes

Tonya again i donīt hate anyone, you should go back and read why i have reservations and to whom they apply my only reservations to you are your whinning and acting childish on this forum what to me reflect bad on your dev work. My reservations to Jessica i have explained quite a few times, and even on this page, my reservations to LGG are none at all, see above, maybe you will understand someday that i donīt hate anyone. And donīt usually paint broad brushes like you do by claiming anyone with any criticism at all is a "hater". I dont really play the "no u" game itīs incredibly childish.

Thorn

The sins of the past have been made.
Many of the new developers and what I am reading are taking a more responsible approach to the future of the work. I am reading that Firestorm team has checks and balances in place now to prevent one or a few people from doing things.

Most program development companies work this way.
Teams work on small areas of the over all program, they then get combined to the main version then several people review all the coding and test it.

We place faith in many developers everyday, with out knowing what is really going on behind the scenes for all we know Linden Labs can be doing stuff and we wouldn't know.
Until its discovered would the lab just bail or would they get ride of the one person and try to keep their user base?
I think they would try to keep the users.

Elysium Hynes

You didnīt approve of it and instead of speaking up, where busy taking over the project? I thought you only took over the project after phox declined to leave, when you out of hope it would change? THis comment was made right away after the DDOS was dicovered.

Beezle Warburton

"Having some reservations" != "HATE WITH THE HEAT OF TEN THOUSAND SUNS"