Argent Stonecutter

They stood alone at the beginning of your post with no qualifiers. I read the post as saying "there's no innovation in TPVs, and even if there was it wouldn't be impeded by this rule", not "there's no innovation in TPVs that would be blocked by 2k".

1. I'm not the only one who read it that way. There's a bunch of followups by people who read it the same way I did.

2. You're still wrong.

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Argent Stonecutter -- Skyhook Station -- Coonspiracy Store

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."


The previous is a cybernetic datum published - in direct contravention of DoD Regulation #229RR3X3 - as being conducive to the physical, psychological and/or social well-being of the population.

Latif Khalifa

I was talking about the speed of mesh adoption. You talk about semantic difference between "we won't do it" and "we don't have resources", which does not matter one iota to the end user that is still not going to get the feature they want.

Your attempt at scapegoating TPVs for LL bad decisionmaking fail, so you switch to completely unrelated subject. Of course.

Joshua Nightshade

Okay.

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miranda

Noooo ... Of course Linden Lab has not refused to implement this feature.
But this feature has an impact on every other viewers . Indeed , if i use mesh deformer , and i modify my shape , the other viewers without mesh deformy ready in their code couldn t offer to the user the exepected result .

This is their answer
So they have not refused , or they don t refuse .

Joshua Nightshade

Where?

Argent Stonecutter

In the rare case where someone has said "this isn't an innovation because they had it in such-and-such a book/show/whatever", the fact that it showed up 30 years ago instead of 30 minutes ago is generally cited as a reason it _wasn't_ innovative, because it was "an obvious idea" that long ago.

Invention is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration. Dismissing the result because they were inspired by a wishlist is churlish.

Latif Khalifa

You said that the "mesh adoption was stifled" because of TPVs and contrasted it to the adoption of sculpties. I pointed out the reasons why mesh adoption rate is slow, even now that all viewers support it, and of course you don't relate to those arguments, you find some semantic issues that you'd rather argue.

Argent Stonecutter

Oh, hey, there's something that Firestorm does that messes up the shared experience, and it really bugs me. And that's showing unrezzed avatars as ugly brown clouds of bromine instead of pristine white clouds of, I don't know, pixel steam.

Does that fall under 2k?

Joshua Nightshade

Someone asked me for an example of something that would demonstrate an improvement by LL holding more control of the viewer and I responded by pointing out mesh adoption being hampered by content creators saying they would wait until mesh was in Phoenix — which, btw, isn't a guess, it's something flat out demonstrated by the numerous threads here on SLU where content creators said that, along with the numerous discussions in-world in content creator groups which I've attended and saw people saying they would wait until mesh was supported in more than just LL's viewer.

You — who wasn't asked or referenced in either post previously — responded by changing the subject to post conjecture about your own theories that have nothing to do with my post, the question I was asked, or the topic.

Be on the lookout for that mirror I said you need, I went ahead and bought you one. No need to thank me, your joy at finally being able to stop projecting is all the gratitude I could ever need.

You being wrong isn't a semantic issue, it's you being wrong. You were wrong about how the mesh deformer got developed and you were wrong when you pretended that it wasn't something LL had even heard of before Qarl gave them the patch. If you'd rather not receive a reply to something you're wrong on, don't be wrong.

Joshua Nightshade

Uh, that's basically what I just said? Okay then.

Innula Zenovka

LL have told Tateru and Oz posted in the Official Forums that He also posted, in reply to the question simply which seems as plain and unambiguous as one could want, and it simply restates what was apparently said both at the meeting with the devs and later at a Sim user group meeting (can't be bothered to chase down the links in Nalates' blog right now).

Since he's said, in terms, that RLV and integrated AOs aren't affected, and since he and LL have also said that the vast majority of stuff in existing TPVs isn't affected either and that people have been told what they need to fix (e.g. true online presence), and since no one's been told to take out area search or radar or command line stuff, then, to my mind, the question about whether anything else that's currently in TPVs needs to come out seems to be pretty much resolved.

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Innula Zenovka

That's the point -- if I'm wearing mesh clothes and I'm using the deformer, they'll look right to me and to everyone else using a viewer that supports the deformer, and wrong to everyone who is't using one. So you and I might walk into a club together, and I'm going to see everyone with perfectly fitting mesh clothes and you're going to see everyone looking a right mess, because we're using different viewers, even though we're looking at the same thing.

Tonya Souther

I wouldn't want to be associated with them either. I've objected to people who wanted to join the team because of their histories, and they haven't been added.

Firestorm does not have it, never has, and now never will.

Because every line of code that was added to Firestorm was at the very least examined, if not rewritten, by members of the current team. We used Phoenix code where it could be used legally in an LGPL viewer, and where if made sense and wasn't a griefer tool or full of unprofessional code (ever looked at the code in Phoenix? I mean, really, variables named catfayce, and comments that wouldn't be usable on TV...)

Firestorm is a philosophical descendant of Phoenix where it makes sense, but any code ported over from Phoenix has been scrubbed of anything from Emerald that's in the least bit questionable.

Joshua's mind is made up. Don't confuse him with facts.

There's another reason: some of the code was not usable in an LGPL viewer due to its original license. Everything we've added, we've either rewritten or else tracked down the original author and gotten their explicit permission to use in Firestorm as an LGPL viewer.

Exactly correct.

And which any reasonable person will agree with. I leave the conclusion as to whether Joshua is reasonable as an exercise for the student.

Hang it in your ear, Latif. We've always done the right thing, whether you agree or not.

And Firestorm does have the ability to let the user know that his version wasn't built by the Firestorm team and downloaded as an official release. We simply haven't used it yet. We consider that to be of benefit to the end user, and if you don't like it, that's too damned bad. It still does not affect our open-sourcedness.

I do too; the NaCl tag system I regard as basically rendering tagging useless.

Of course, that whole question is now moot, anyway...

And as for doing things from scratch...well, I've explained it above, but I'll take this opportunity to say I hate GPL zealots. Yes, Exodus and Imprudence, I'm looking at you.

That's Joshua's modus operandi. He's never admitted error. He's as stubborn about that as the TSA, and as useless, as well.

Joshua Nightshade

Yawn.

eighthdwarf Checchinato

Which is, in my opinion, totally reasonable. Why jumping on the bandwagon of creating something that only a minority of all users (namely those who use the LL-Viewer) will see? It'ss better to wait until the most-used viewers adopt it, then it can be considered as a means of content creation.

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Whisper

America got to the moon because they saw further than the fact that it was nazi scientists who developed the first ballistic missile. In fact, they forgave those very people and together they achieved a marvelous thing.

Secondlife is a richer place because the Firestorm team saw further than the emerald team, a fact stamped in the connection logs at linden lab.

they are big enough to accept the past and move ahead. yes, they made a mistake with the true online presence feature, but it wasnt like that feature wasnt already available to anyone in secondlife through lsl, and it could be argued that by bringing it so blatently to the attention of linden lab, that they helped to close the hole.

thankfully, not everyone shares the same view that josh does, or we'd be left with the 1.x series viewer, or worse, the 2.x.

that is all.

Latif Khalifa

Imprudence team have very strong convictions. I never license anything I make GPL if I have a choice, but still have full respect for people that that make a different choice out of conviction.

Exodus are just being selfish assholes, and in the process have managed to violate the license and distribute their viewer illegally. Luckily Linden Lab is on to them and Oz said that they have agreed (I read that as forced) to relicense their viewer.

Siana Gearz

Don't buy into this FUD. Phoenix/Firestorm are my rivals. They have done things, political things that i fiercely disagree with, including attempts at harming my viewer's reputation. They have made technical decisions that i disagree with too. I take any chance to shout at them. However there are two things that should be of no consern.

1) Developers with shady past. No, there are none. They are outright paranoid about it, if there actually were any, it would have instantly been used against them. By me among other people.
2) Emerald heritage of Phoenix viewer. The largest problem of Emerald has never been what was in the published source code, but the parts they left out. Phoenix simply doesn't have any of those, and the source code has been scrutinized by their own, by me, by so many people otherwise.

Furthermore Phoenix is on its way into the grave. The newer Firestorm viewer has no heritage in Emerald codebase, and has never had controversal features.

The controversal features in Phoenix that had been left in, were left in because not enough people complained, or not loudly enough, and there were no regulations forbidding these. Not even as much as an opinion from the Lindens. Now the regulations have been adjusted last friday, so they'll fix this.

Tonya Souther

Indeed so. LL's view was that mesh would pull people to the official viewer. Instead, it shook out as I'd predicted: mesh didn't really take off until Phoenix could show it.

Whisper

it could also be argued that putting mesh into phoenix kept them away from the official viewer, which has a much nicer interface than FS at this point in time.

imho of course.

Elysium Hynes

I find quite funny when people like to pretend the Emerald saga never happened, and that Jessica somehow was never involved in it, when all TPV devs should take that episode as an example of what happens when devs go wrong, and why many users will not touch TPV´s these days.

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Tonya Souther

Yes, Jess was there. She was one of the adults in the room. She kept getting overruled. If you're going to hold that against her, then you're free to do so, but any reasonable person is also free to conclude that you're being much more vindictive than necessary.

Misty Harley

I don't think it's vindictive as much as it is wary. I'm also extremely wary (although glad a few things were cleared up for me in this thread) of anything released by the Firestorm/Phoenix team BECAUSE of past history and how some of those players (including those who just plain treat people like idiots if they don't agree) were or are (that part I'm not even sure of right now) still on the team.

It's a personal choice and just as anyone who loves FS/PX can rejoice in it's goodness...I think it is safe to say that those who are wary of it or of ANY TPV because of it's roots....should also be allowed to say so.

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Siana Gearz

Jessica involved as what? She was a user mentor, a person who shows clueless people which buttons to push!

Elysium Hynes

Unlike Jessica a lot of people jumped ship as soon as they knew about this and saw it happen. What it does show me of her personality is, will she be blind to see if this happens again? Or will she be overruled?

I have no reason to be vindictive about anything, but i remember well seeing Jessice and Arabella sitting side by side one week and Jessica alone the next trying to withwash what happened, while others with more principles, simple said i will have nothing to do with this, and that to me speaks volumes. And is the reason i would never touch any project she is associated with, oh and the fact that the Firestorm team even had doubts about implementing the true online status, only assured me of what kind of principles they are run by.