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Old 02-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #976 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade View Post
you took the italiacs out of context.
They stood alone at the beginning of your post with no qualifiers. I read the post as saying "there's no innovation in TPVs, and even if there was it wouldn't be impeded by this rule", not "there's no innovation in TPVs that would be blocked by 2k".

1. I'm not the only one who read it that way. There's a bunch of followups by people who read it the same way I did.

2. You're still wrong.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #977 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade View Post
This isn't true, DanielRavenNest has had a longstanding JIRA from the mesh beta asking for a parametric deformer a la what was added to Blue Mars eventually and LL's reply was that they did not have the resources to develop one themselves but if someone else did they would look the code and consider it. So people donated to Qarl's effort and now we have alpha code that LL apparently will be implementing.

It's not like LL had never heard of the concept before Qarl handed them the code. It was LL saying "if someone else does the grunt work we'll consider it" that pushed Maxwell to the crowdsourcing effort.
I was talking about the speed of mesh adoption. You talk about semantic difference between "we won't do it" and "we don't have resources", which does not matter one iota to the end user that is still not going to get the feature they want.

Your attempt at scapegoating TPVs for LL bad decisionmaking fail, so you switch to completely unrelated subject. Of course.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #978 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
They stood alone at the beginning of your post with no qualifiers. I read the post as saying "there's no innovation in TPVs, and even if there was it wouldn't be impeded by this rule", not "there's no innovation in TPVs that would be blocked by 2k".

1. I'm not the only one who read it that way. There's a bunch of followups by people who read it the same way I did.

2. You're still wrong.
Okay.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:12 AM   #979 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa View Post
The top 5 most popular viewers on the gird now support mesh. That will not solve problem with mesh adoption for two reasons: for rigged attachments, the lack of mesh deformer which allows clothes to fit to your avatar shape has led to content creators having to shop all sorts of hack and workarounds, like include 4-5 different sizes, having to use alpha wearables, etc. to make clothes appear to fit. Linden Lab refused to implement this feature. It was only when we, the users of Second Life, have crowd funded Qarl to implement the much wanted feature, did LL consider including it in their own viewer. And now that LL is involved it means it will take much longer to get there.

The second reason is Prim Equivalence/Land Impact for mesh when rezzed on the parcels. Linden Lab has set price so high on those that people still prefer to use prims and sculpts as the most affordable way to put content on the parcel.

For these reasons, I don't think mesh will achieve the speed of adoption that sculpts have enjoyed, even now, when support in viewers is near universal.
Noooo ... Of course Linden Lab has not refused to implement this feature.
But this feature has an impact on every other viewers . Indeed , if i use mesh deformer , and i modify my shape , the other viewers without mesh deformy ready in their code couldn t offer to the user the exepected result .

This is their answer
Quote:
Its something that affects the shared experience, so its a feature that should be developed by working with Linden Lab so that it can be incorporated
it into Second Life for all users. Were very supportive of the mesh deformer proposal and are working with Qarl to incorporate it into the official Viewer as soon as its done. As such, we dont expect this to be a problem.
So they have not refused , or they don t refuse .

Quote:

We would prefer that testing of the new feature be done primarily on that common code base to minimize the time until we can accept it, but dont object to TPVs incorporating test versions with it. We caution content creators and users that until work on it is complete, any objects created using test versions may not remain compatible with the final integrated feature.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:13 AM   #980 (permalink)
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Your attempt at scapegoating TPVs for LL bad decisionmaking fail
Where?
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:17 AM   #981 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade View Post
I think there's a difference between creating a tablet computer similar to something that showed up in an episode of Star Trek thirty years ago and looking at a popular JIRA request from last year and saying "I've got some free time, I can do this."
In the rare case where someone has said "this isn't an innovation because they had it in such-and-such a book/show/whatever", the fact that it showed up 30 years ago instead of 30 minutes ago is generally cited as a reason it _wasn't_ innovative, because it was "an obvious idea" that long ago.

Invention is 10% inspiration, and 90% perspiration. Dismissing the result because they were inspired by a wishlist is churlish.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:19 AM   #982 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade View Post
Where?
You said that the "mesh adoption was stifled" because of TPVs and contrasted it to the adoption of sculpties. I pointed out the reasons why mesh adoption rate is slow, even now that all viewers support it, and of course you don't relate to those arguments, you find some semantic issues that you'd rather argue.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:20 AM   #983 (permalink)
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Oh, hey, there's something that Firestorm does that messes up the shared experience, and it really bugs me. And that's showing unrezzed avatars as ugly brown clouds of bromine instead of pristine white clouds of, I don't know, pixel steam.

Does that fall under 2k?
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:20 AM   #984 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa View Post
You said that the "mesh adoption was stifled" because of TPVs and contrasted it to the adoption of sculpties. I pointed out the reasons why mesh adoption rate is slow, even now that all viewers support it, and of course you don't relate to those arguments, you find some semantic issues that you'd rather argue.
Someone asked me for an example of something that would demonstrate an improvement by LL holding more control of the viewer and I responded by pointing out mesh adoption being hampered by content creators saying they would wait until mesh was in Phoenix — which, btw, isn't a guess, it's something flat out demonstrated by the numerous threads here on SLU where content creators said that, along with the numerous discussions in-world in content creator groups which I've attended and saw people saying they would wait until mesh was supported in more than just LL's viewer.

You — who wasn't asked or referenced in either post previously — responded by changing the subject to post conjecture about your own theories that have nothing to do with my post, the question I was asked, or the topic.

Be on the lookout for that mirror I said you need, I went ahead and bought you one. No need to thank me, your joy at finally being able to stop projecting is all the gratitude I could ever need.

You being wrong isn't a semantic issue, it's you being wrong. You were wrong about how the mesh deformer got developed and you were wrong when you pretended that it wasn't something LL had even heard of before Qarl gave them the patch. If you'd rather not receive a reply to something you're wrong on, don't be wrong.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:23 AM   #985 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
In the rare case where someone has said "this isn't an innovation because they had it in such-and-such a book/show/whatever", the fact that it showed up 30 years ago instead of 30 minutes ago is generally cited as a reason it _wasn't_ innovative, because it was "an obvious idea" that long ago.
Uh, that's basically what I just said? Okay then.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:28 AM   #986 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kara Spengler View Post
Until LL defines what "shared experience" means nobody does. It also seems that Oz does not either. So until that uncertainly is resolved anything in a TPV that is not in the official viewer might be fair game. Radar? Area search? Built-in AO? Command-line stuff? RLV? On and on ...
LL have told Tateru
Quote:
The vast majority of TPV features are differences in the user interface or communications that dont create any incompatibility with other Viewers, and as such are not affected by the new rules.
and Oz posted in the Official Forums that
Quote:
It's worth noting that the vast majority of all changes made by third party viewers have certainly not been a problem. The fact that there have been some problems in the past motivated our adding this rule so that in the future developers would work closely with us to prevent any more like them.

A shared experience change is one that modifies the definition of the elements that make up the virtual world, or how they behave, in such a way that users on other viewers dont experience the same virtual reality.

This rule does not affect changes to rendering, user interface, or the controls a viewer offers for interacting with the world.
He also posted, in reply to the question
Quote:
Does this mean systems like RLV and integrated AO's are no longer allowed?
simply
Quote:
No
which seems as plain and unambiguous as one could want, and it simply restates what was apparently said both at the meeting with the devs and later at a Sim user group meeting (can't be bothered to chase down the links in Nalates' blog right now).

Since he's said, in terms, that RLV and integrated AOs aren't affected, and since he and LL have also said that the vast majority of stuff in existing TPVs isn't affected either and that people have been told what they need to fix (e.g. true online presence), and since no one's been told to take out area search or radar or command line stuff, then, to my mind, the question about whether anything else that's currently in TPVs needs to come out seems to be pretty much resolved.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:38 AM   #987 (permalink)
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But that's not the only way to cause an experience not to be shared. Surely if it's changed from the user's POV it's no longer shared, just as much as if it changes for someone else. If the quoted characterization of the new rules is correct, then why is the mesh deformer code, which only changes what mesh attachments look like to someone with a viewer that has the code and has it activated, problematic under 2k?
That's the point -- if I'm wearing mesh clothes and I'm using the deformer, they'll look right to me and to everyone else using a viewer that supports the deformer, and wrong to everyone who is't using one. So you and I might walk into a club together, and I'm going to see everyone with perfectly fitting mesh clothes and you're going to see everyone looking a right mess, because we're using different viewers, even though we're looking at the same thing.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:45 AM   #988 (permalink)
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Firestorm is a completely seperate viewer forked from LL's viewer 2 code. I am sure that you have seen Arrehn who carried out much of the early development work sometimes posting on here. I repeat who are these "permabanned hackers" that are working on it? I wouldn't want to be associated with such people so please tell me.
I wouldn't want to be associated with them either. I've objected to people who wanted to join the team because of their histories, and they haven't been added.

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I'm not a viewer dev but doesn't/didn't both phoenix and firestorm have 'true on line status' that was originally put in Emerald?
Firestorm does not have it, never has, and now never will.

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Phoenix was brought on from Emerald (which was brought on from the viewer that I can't remember the name either) and led to Firestorm when V2 came around but many of the liked features in Phoenix/Emerald were also put in Firestorm so how could Firestorm have been built from scratch with no relation to Phoenix/Emerald?
Because every line of code that was added to Firestorm was at the very least examined, if not rewritten, by members of the current team. We used Phoenix code where it could be used legally in an LGPL viewer, and where if made sense and wasn't a griefer tool or full of unprofessional code (ever looked at the code in Phoenix? I mean, really, variables named catfayce, and comments that wouldn't be usable on TV...)

Firestorm is a philosophical descendant of Phoenix where it makes sense, but any code ported over from Phoenix has been scrubbed of anything from Emerald that's in the least bit questionable.

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Firestorm was built from a trunk off Viewer 2 not off the Phoenix code which is what I am trying to point out to Joshua.
Joshua's mind is made up. Don't confuse him with facts.

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Many of the popular features were ported across to Firestorm but none of the privacy invasive ones (unless you count viewer tagging). Much of the code to add the features from Phoenix into Firestorm would have had to have been rewritten at least in part because Viewer 2/3 works very differently in some areas and there are new features more relevant to Viewer 2/3 that have been added.
There's another reason: some of the code was not usable in an LGPL viewer due to its original license. Everything we've added, we've either rewritten or else tracked down the original author and gotten their explicit permission to use in Firestorm as an LGPL viewer.

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Phoenix has True Online Status. The viewer itself is a fork of Emerald.

Firestorm is a new viewer by the creators of Phoenix; it is not linked to Emerald in any way other than the Phoenix Devs work on it. It does not contain true online status.
Exactly correct.

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Originally Posted by Hitomi Tiponi View Post
I don't believe I said that - maybe you could quote it for me (and if so I'll be happy to withdraw it). I have said that Firestorm was developed seperately, but I have never said it had nothing to do with Phoenix - just that Phoenix was not the basis for the Firestorm viewer which I stand by.
And which any reasonable person will agree with. I leave the conclusion as to whether Joshua is reasonable as an exercise for the student.

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Now with Firestorm, the transition is full. The questionable features and development practices were dropped, their copyright and licensing policies are clear. I commend the team for their ability to grow and do the right thing.
Hang it in your ear, Latif. We've always done the right thing, whether you agree or not.

And Firestorm does have the ability to let the user know that his version wasn't built by the Firestorm team and downloaded as an official release. We simply haven't used it yet. We consider that to be of benefit to the end user, and if you don't like it, that's too damned bad. It still does not affect our open-sourcedness.

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Originally Posted by Argent Stonecutter View Post
Not really. It's based on a different code base, starting with a different version of SL, and doesn't incorporate things like the creepy stalking features in Phoenix. Where it has implemented features introduced in Phoenix it's frequently done it from scratch, as can be shown by the differences in things like viewer tags between Phoenix and Firestorm. Personally, I'd rather they just implemented the same viewer tags in both.
I do too; the NaCl tag system I regard as basically rendering tagging useless.

Of course, that whole question is now moot, anyway...

And as for doing things from scratch...well, I've explained it above, but I'll take this opportunity to say I hate GPL zealots. Yes, Exodus and Imprudence, I'm looking at you.

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You said that the "mesh adoption was stifled" because of TPVs and contrasted it to the adoption of sculpties. I pointed out the reasons why mesh adoption rate is slow, even now that all viewers support it, and of course you don't relate to those arguments, you find some semantic issues that you'd rather argue.
That's Joshua's modus operandi. He's never admitted error. He's as stubborn about that as the TSA, and as useless, as well.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:46 AM   #989 (permalink)
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Yawn.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:51 AM   #990 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade View Post
Someone asked me for an example of something that would demonstrate an improvement by LL holding more control of the viewer and I responded by pointing out mesh adoption being hampered by content creators saying they would wait until mesh was in Phoenix which, btw, isn't a guess, it's something flat out demonstrated by the numerous threads here on SLU where content creators said that, along with the numerous discussions in-world in content creator groups which I've attended and saw people saying they would wait until mesh was supported in more than just LL's viewer.
Which is, in my opinion, totally reasonable. Why jumping on the bandwagon of creating something that only a minority of all users (namely those who use the LL-Viewer) will see? It'ss better to wait until the most-used viewers adopt it, then it can be considered as a means of content creation.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:03 AM   #991 (permalink)
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America got to the moon because they saw further than the fact that it was nazi scientists who developed the first ballistic missile. In fact, they forgave those very people and together they achieved a marvelous thing.

Secondlife is a richer place because the Firestorm team saw further than the emerald team, a fact stamped in the connection logs at linden lab.

they are big enough to accept the past and move ahead. yes, they made a mistake with the true online presence feature, but it wasnt like that feature wasnt already available to anyone in secondlife through lsl, and it could be argued that by bringing it so blatently to the attention of linden lab, that they helped to close the hole.

thankfully, not everyone shares the same view that josh does, or we'd be left with the 1.x series viewer, or worse, the 2.x.

that is all.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #992 (permalink)
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I'll take this opportunity to say I hate GPL zealots. Yes, Exodus and Imprudence, I'm looking at you.
Imprudence team have very strong convictions. I never license anything I make GPL if I have a choice, but still have full respect for people that that make a different choice out of conviction.

Exodus are just being selfish assholes, and in the process have managed to violate the license and distribute their viewer illegally. Luckily Linden Lab is on to them and Oz said that they have agreed (I read that as forced) to relicense their viewer.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:13 AM   #993 (permalink)
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Because it has it's basis in Emerald, I won't use it either, especially not now considering the above information.
Don't buy into this FUD. Phoenix/Firestorm are my rivals. They have done things, political things that i fiercely disagree with, including attempts at harming my viewer's reputation. They have made technical decisions that i disagree with too. I take any chance to shout at them. However there are two things that should be of no consern.

1) Developers with shady past. No, there are none. They are outright paranoid about it, if there actually were any, it would have instantly been used against them. By me among other people.
2) Emerald heritage of Phoenix viewer. The largest problem of Emerald has never been what was in the published source code, but the parts they left out. Phoenix simply doesn't have any of those, and the source code has been scrutinized by their own, by me, by so many people otherwise.

Furthermore Phoenix is on its way into the grave. The newer Firestorm viewer has no heritage in Emerald codebase, and has never had controversal features.

The controversal features in Phoenix that had been left in, were left in because not enough people complained, or not loudly enough, and there were no regulations forbidding these. Not even as much as an opinion from the Lindens. Now the regulations have been adjusted last friday, so they'll fix this.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:15 AM   #994 (permalink)
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Which is, in my opinion, totally reasonable. Why jumping on the bandwagon of creating something that only a minority of all users (namely those who use the LL-Viewer) will see? It'ss better to wait until the most-used viewers adopt it, then it can be considered as a means of content creation.
Indeed so. LL's view was that mesh would pull people to the official viewer. Instead, it shook out as I'd predicted: mesh didn't really take off until Phoenix could show it.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:20 AM   #995 (permalink)
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Indeed so. LL's view was that mesh would pull people to the official viewer. Instead, it shook out as I'd predicted: mesh didn't really take off until Phoenix could show it.

it could also be argued that putting mesh into phoenix kept them away from the official viewer, which has a much nicer interface than FS at this point in time.

imho of course.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:20 AM   #996 (permalink)
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I find quite funny when people like to pretend the Emerald saga never happened, and that Jessica somehow was never involved in it, when all TPV devs should take that episode as an example of what happens when devs go wrong, and why many users will not touch TPVs these days.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:23 AM   #997 (permalink)
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I find quite funny when people like to pretend the Emerald saga never happened, and that Jessica somehow was never involved in it, when all TPV devs should take that episode as an example of what happens when devs go wrong, and why many users will not touch TPVs these days.
Yes, Jess was there. She was one of the adults in the room. She kept getting overruled. If you're going to hold that against her, then you're free to do so, but any reasonable person is also free to conclude that you're being much more vindictive than necessary.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:27 AM   #998 (permalink)
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I don't think it's vindictive as much as it is wary. I'm also extremely wary (although glad a few things were cleared up for me in this thread) of anything released by the Firestorm/Phoenix team BECAUSE of past history and how some of those players (including those who just plain treat people like idiots if they don't agree) were or are (that part I'm not even sure of right now) still on the team.

It's a personal choice and just as anyone who loves FS/PX can rejoice in it's goodness...I think it is safe to say that those who are wary of it or of ANY TPV because of it's roots....should also be allowed to say so.
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:27 AM   #999 (permalink)
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I find quite funny when people like to pretend the Emerald saga never happened, and that Jessica somehow was never involved in it, when all TPV devs should take that episode as an example of what happens when devs go wrong, and why many users will not touch TPVs these days.
Jessica involved as what? She was a user mentor, a person who shows clueless people which buttons to push!
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Old 02-29-2012, 11:32 AM   #1000 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tonya Souther View Post
Yes, Jess was there. She was one of the adults in the room. She kept getting overruled. If you're going to hold that against her, then you're free to do so, but any reasonable person is also free to conclude that you're being much more vindictive than necessary.
Unlike Jessica a lot of people jumped ship as soon as they knew about this and saw it happen. What it does show me of her personality is, will she be blind to see if this happens again? Or will she be overruled?

I have no reason to be vindictive about anything, but i remember well seeing Jessice and Arabella sitting side by side one week and Jessica alone the next trying to withwash what happened, while others with more principles, simple said i will have nothing to do with this, and that to me speaks volumes. And is the reason i would never touch any project she is associated with, oh and the fact that the Firestorm team even had doubts about implementing the true online status, only assured me of what kind of principles they are run by.
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