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Old 02-24-2012, 09:35 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by eighthdwarf Checchinato View Post
I simply took it literally.
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2.k : You must not provide any feature that alters the shared experience of the virtual world in any way not provided by or accessible to users of the latest released Linden Lab viewer.
You seem to have missed the shared part. RLV doesn't affect anyone [for example] who isn't using it - it doesn't leave prims floating in mid-air. The problem with the true status, on the other hand is, that it wasn't an opt-in thing like RLV is. Someone took that choice away from you - in the same manner that the old emerald physics settings did, as the true online status does.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:53 PM   #52 (permalink)
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I don't doubt it happens, but I've never actually heard of anyone doing it, or seen it. At best it sounds like a convenient excuse. Linden Lab's rentention rates are a far bigger problem to them, and everyone knows they want to improve the rates for both the grid and their viewers. Their employees, especially the decision makers, certainly deserve to be embarassed at how low the rates are.
It happens. If not outright griefing, people can be quite mean to others not using their religion viewer of choice. Plus, there's always a peer pressure element to things. I've actually met plenty of people who were content to be on official, and some others who were on FS/Phoe because that's all anyone would tell them to use if they had a question about how to do something.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:57 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Evola View Post
I don't doubt it happens, but I've never actually heard of anyone doing it, or seen it. At best it sounds like a convenient excuse. Linden Lab's rentention rates are a far bigger problem to them, and everyone knows they want to improve the rates for both the grid and their viewers. Their employees, especially the decision makers, certainly deserve to be embarassed at how low the rates are.
I've never seen any of it happening in local chat (you can see tags of rez'd avatars) to other people, but I've been flamed before when I wander in to like a public sandbox. More often I've seen viewer bashing happening in group chats, and you can't even see tags there.
I've been hearing rumors of an anti-tag policy for a while, the reason always stated for being the major factor was always the flaming one. I'm not saying it happens a lot or that it was actually the reason, its only what I've heard. LL rarely ever gives official reasons for anything.


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A question of my own: is this policy just to be listed in the Third Party Viewer list? Or to be able to connect to SL period? If it's the former, it's not like TPV's need to be listed to get people to use them. Few people actually read Second Life's poorly designed website to begin with, unless they're googling for something specific.
All viewers. If you want to connect to SL, the viewer should be fallow it or something may happen.
There's actually a fare number looking at the TPVD. If an unlisted viewer gets some popularity, they tend to get a bunch of random people annoying them about it. But only LL can knows how many are actually looking at those pages.
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:59 PM   #54 (permalink)
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The problem is, Linden Lab seems so unwilling to implement these features themselves until their presence in a TPV shows that it can be done, people want it, LL just didn't want to put in the effort themselves.
I just got done listening to the audio transcript of the meeting, and in it Oz makes it clear that he's aware of the reputation LL has about things like that. He says that's the old pre-Rodvik regime, and he asks to give the lab a chance to do it right. I guess we shall see how it all turns out in the end, but the way I see it, things have been turning around at the lab since Rodvik took the helm and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:05 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Is losing the tags that big a deal? How hard is it to ask "What viewer are you using?" if someone asks you a question. If they can't give you the answer, then they probably aren't going to understand what you tell them anyway.

Personally, I've always felt those viewer tags were a "Hey look at me, I'm a cool TPVer" badge.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:07 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Then again, would this mean that NON-MESH viewers will soon be verboten? (Affects how others see you, either properly dressed or wearing boxes/blobs)
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:19 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Then again, would this mean that NON-MESH viewers will soon be verboten? (Affects how others see you, either properly dressed or wearing boxes/blobs)
It only alters the user's experience, not the shared experience.

Plus it says "provide any feature," not "omit any feature."
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:25 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Plus, there's always a peer pressure element to things. I've actually met plenty of people who were content to be on official, and some others who were on FS/Phoe because that's all anyone would tell them to use if they had a question about how to do something.

I've seen that, quite a bit when V2 first came out, though I wouldn't characterize it as peer pressure, just a frustrating inability to get help from a user base who near universally hated v2, for whatever multitude of reasons. It's not like "Ask LL", "Look it up on the website", or "Try customer support" is a viable suggestion to new people looking for assistance either, hasn't been in most of my years here.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:31 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Inhandra View Post
It happens. If not outright griefing, people can be quite mean to others not using their religion viewer of choice. Plus, there's always a peer pressure element to things. I've actually met plenty of people who were content to be on official, and some others who were on FS/Phoe because that's all anyone would tell them to use if they had a question about how to do something.
The only real viewer drama I ran into was from certain people who bought into a certain blogger's "ZOMG LL HAZ TEH JEALOUS" b.s. after Emerald got the axe.

They were the same group that tends to shun non-voicers, so I've moved on.
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:32 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ilana Debevec View Post
Then again, would this mean that NON-MESH viewers will soon be verboten? (Affects how others see you, either properly dressed or wearing boxes/blobs)
It would seem likely for the TPV non-mesh viewers, and LL can always ban their own viewers as they want. That would seem to be a change from their previous policy of letting the old viewers die, but makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Kadah Coba View Post
Hitomi, were you at that meeting? I don't know if I saw you there or not, but it was really crowded anyway.
No - I wasn't able to be there. What concerns me is the sudden withdrawal of various server-side services with only a few days notice, just like the sudden withdrawal of support for Viewer 1 after there being 'no plans to' the day before. This seems to be reinforcing a lack of communication with the community that seems to be part of their 'mushroom' policy. Did you feel more positive about it?
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:40 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ilana Debevec View Post
Then again, would this mean that NON-MESH viewers will soon be verboten? (Affects how others see you, either properly dressed or wearing boxes/blobs)
Nope, Oz said that's a matter of viewers simply not keeping up. I think the general gist I'm getting is that if you want to log in with an outdated viewer, that's fine, that's your choice, but be prepared to see a lot of broken stuff in the future.

Inventing brand-new inworld features without LL's approval is what this policy change is about.

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Old 02-24-2012, 10:41 PM   #62 (permalink)
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I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, the Emerald implementation of things like extra attachment points and breast physics were highly problematic. On the other hand, I don't believe for a minute that LL would have gotten around to coding either the right way if Emerald hadn't forced their hand. (And the same goes for parcel Windlight, and doubtless other things I'm forgetting.) I can see why the Lab wouldn't want to keep being forced to come up with better implementations of popular features, but from a user's perspective there's much to be said for TPVs being able to demonstrate where the demand is...
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:55 PM   #63 (permalink)
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hmmmm I wonder if something like the Exodus Request Teleport feature comes under this new rule? I would have thought not, because when I send a teleport request to a non-Exodus user, they don't see a thing so it's kinda my bad, not theirs....
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:56 PM   #64 (permalink)
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hmmmm I wonder if something like the Exodus Request Teleport feature comes under this new rule? I would have thought not, because when I send a teleport request to a non-Exodus user, they don't see a thing so it's kinda my bad, not theirs....
It doesn't. It's just a UI thing. Oz said in the meeting that he actually thinks it's a cool feature.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:00 PM   #65 (permalink)
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I think my question was missed in my last post.

What about Phoenix/Firestorm Double-Click Teleport, which uses LSL to teleport, even if point-to-point TP is disabled for the sim? Or any other feature that requires the LSL Bridge?
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:02 PM   #66 (permalink)
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BREAKING NEWS: Linden Lab changes Third Party Viewer Policy to ensure that all viewers suck as much as their own.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:13 PM   #67 (permalink)
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I think my question was missed in my last post.

What about Phoenix/Firestorm Double-Click Teleport, which uses LSL to teleport, even if point-to-point TP is disabled for the sim? Or any other feature that requires the LSL Bridge?
I would think that would still be fine, as it isn't doing anything that affects other people.

Custom attachment points that only work on one viewer and make things float bizarrely for everyone else are the sort of problem they have decided to end. Custom functionality for yourself that doesn't utilise exploits? I don't think that's what the policy change is about.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:17 PM   #68 (permalink)
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My only thought is that on sims where point-to-point TP is disabled, the feature is offering a different shared experience for the users, in that they are able to TP when others cannot, much the same way parcel windlight does. Since parcel windlight was said to be afoul of this policy (but given a free pass), I would think the double-click TP would be a problem as well. That's why I was curious.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:18 PM   #69 (permalink)
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I don't see the double-click TP as being any more "evil" than the tool I have that just zaps you in a direction. Or the Flight Feather that takes you over the LL set flight limit. It's not a real teleport, it's really a movement tool.

As far as it over-riding a sim's settings -- you still arrived at the sim's "entry" point, right?
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:22 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I never said it is evil. I don't think it is evil any more than I think the parcel windlight settings are evil, but it is offering a different experience that overrides the sim settings. My viewers of choice don't have those features, so I am only asking out of curiosity.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:23 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I just got done listening to the audio transcript of the meeting, and in it Oz makes it clear that he's aware of the reputation LL has about things like that. He says that's the old pre-Rodvik regime, and he asks to give the lab a chance to do it right. I guess we shall see how it all turns out in the end, but the way I see it, things have been turning around at the lab since Rodvik took the helm and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.
Do you happen to have a link to this transcript? I'm interested in hearing what went on.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:27 PM   #72 (permalink)
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My only thought is that on sims where point-to-point TP is disabled, the feature is offering a different shared experience for the users, in that they are able to TP when others cannot, much the same way parcel windlight does. Since parcel windlight was said to be afoul of this policy (but given a free pass), I would think the double-click TP would be a problem as well. That's why I was curious.
But estate owners/managers override that setting by default anyway, so it's not adding anything else. I think people are taking a very, very literal reading of the policy and in doing so aren't getting the spirit of the policy change.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:43 PM   #73 (permalink)
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But estate owners/managers override that setting by default anyway, so it's not adding anything else. I think people are taking a very, very literal reading of the policy and in doing so aren't getting the spirit of the policy change.
I hope and suspect you're right.

Still, if I was a developer, I think I'd lean toward a literal reading and be very cautious about investing time in something that might or might not brush up against this electric fence.

LL's history of rules enforcement pretty much illustrates "capricious."
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:43 PM   #74 (permalink)
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I just got done listening to the audio transcript of the meeting, and in it Oz makes it clear that he's aware of the reputation LL has about things like that. He says that's the old pre-Rodvik regime, and he asks to give the lab a chance to do it right. I guess we shall see how it all turns out in the end, but the way I see it, things have been turning around at the lab since Rodvik took the helm and I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here.
That would be fantastic, but I really need to see it before I can believe it.

I'm trying to give Rodvik time to implement changes, and honestly from what I've seen he is trying it just takes a while. I've been saying for years that LL has built up so many bad decisions that even if they pull a complete 180 it will take years for them to put a dent in the mountain.
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Old 02-24-2012, 11:46 PM   #75 (permalink)
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I never said it is evil. I don't think it is evil any more than I think the parcel windlight settings are evil, but it is offering a different experience that overrides the sim settings.
It just moves you around faster than walking. It's not really over-riding anything.
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