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Han Held · 02-27-2012, 08:10 PM

It's clear that TPV development needs to go to opensim in order to get anything done. But the (extremely) low user numbers of opensim (the highest concurrencies atm are around 250-400 people, though I think 1-20 is closer to the average) means that there are not enough users to give the devs the ego boost needed to make the development work worthwhile.

So, essentially, Linden Lab has now killed this platform, and all it can do from here is wither and die.

That's extremely sad, but that's also life, too.

Cerise · 02-27-2012, 08:12 PM

object script counts, some area search versions, temporary uploads are all features that went into popular TPVs and caused more server load than intended. Oz has a valid point on that one.

**Soen Eber** · 02-27-2012, 08:12 PM

All they need to do is provide an instrumented server instance for testing with various load levels, and the TPV community can go to town with any kind of changes they like. Why close off half or more of the client/server paradigm?

Can I get a cat or a dog instead of a pony for making it to the end of the thread?

Latif Khalifa · 02-27-2012, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerise

object script counts, some area search versions, temporary uploads are all features that went into popular TPVs and caused more server load than intended. Oz has a valid point on that one.

I'm not saying that it is not a valid point. I'm saying that I find it unreasonable that the only solution is for the official viewer to adopt it first.

Whisper · 02-27-2012, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalice Yao

Ever thought of blaming the idiot who raged on you instead of being polite and explaining things instead of llGetObjectDetails?

blame is such an awesome thing. it's right up there with scapegoats. blame has been used along with scapegoats for the last 6 years that i'm aware of and prolly 2 years before that, to cover everything from oversized prims to weapons abuse.

the solution is not to shift blame around onto other scapegoats chalice. is it?

oh and chaice, they touched me in the purse lol.

Kadah Coba · 02-27-2012, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerise

object script counts, some area search versions, temporary uploads are all features that went into popular TPVs and caused more server load than intended. Oz has a valid point on that one.

Temp uploads will be disabled/broken at some point when LL start fixing bake fail, but there hasn't been an specific request to remove it as of yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soen Eber

All they need to do is provide an instrumented server instance for testing with various load levels, and the TPV community can go to town with any kind of changes they like. Why close off half or more of the client/server paradigm?

Some things don't show up till there's a few hundred thousand using it concurrently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soen Eber

Can I get a cat or a dog instead of a pony for making it to the end of the thread?

Nebula · 02-27-2012, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa

I'm glad your ignorance gives you amusement. Now go back to read what I wrote about modern viewers such as Singularity. You cannot really called them V1 based anymore. It's really V1 UI viewer with V3 renderer and other guts. Nothing to get obsoleted.

You are being incoherent. What does crash bugs have to do anything? I said CPU usage of scripts does not affect sim lag anymore. I also proposed a test that will allow you to verify this claim. Make CPU only script, and clone 100 of them, crunch prime numbers, than walk around the sim and see if it lags you.

I clearly outlined the cases when and what matters. Are you disputing that 1 temp rezzer will not be far forse for sim performance than 232 hair resizer idle scripts?

You mentioned crash bugs and you are ignorant. It is the v3 rendering pipe line not a rederer you idiot. Have you compiled a viewer. Have you done any source work what so ever. Your complaints about the scripting engine being detached from the sim are even more funny. One line of lsl used to bring the sim down by crashing the script VM. Or do you not remember the null give and count loop bug. Also this has been tested you idiot, otherwise ll wouldn't have broken this. Griffer viewers in 2008 used to do it. Particularly HXO and neil life. You have no idea what you are talking about. And I do not think singularity can upload mesh. Plus singularity's windlight cannot even hold a candle to V3. It is not a modern viewer they are back ports for a reason.

Nothing to get obsoleted. Your grammar is worse than a bad trolls on failure chan.

bladyblue · 02-27-2012, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Han Held

It's clear that TPV development needs to go to opensim in order to get anything done. But the (extremely) low user numbers of opensim (the highest concurrencies atm are around 250-400 people, though I think 1-20 is closer to the average) means that there are not enough users to give the devs the ego boost needed to make the development work worthwhile.

I believe the TPV users comprise a large enough audience willing to log into a OpenSim to test new features they want.

Tonya Souther · 02-27-2012, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerise

object script counts, some area search versions, temporary uploads are all features that went into popular TPVs and caused more server load than intended. Oz has a valid point on that one.

You want to know the biggest server load caused by a viewer? It was when Phoenix added display name support. They weren't prepared for the feature to actually get used to that degree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebula

You mentioned crash bugs and you are ignorant. It is the v3 rendering pipe line not a rederer you idiot. Have you compiled a viewer. Have you done any source work what so ever.

You do know who Latif is, don't you? The guy behind Radegast?

Quote:

Nothing to get obsoleted. Your grammar is worse than a bad trolls on failure chan.

English is not his first language. Cut him some slack. Even raving assholes like him get a pass on grammar flubs as minor as his when they're not speaking their first language.

Latif Khalifa · 02-27-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebula

You mentioned crash bugs and you are ignorant. It is the v3 rendering pipe line not a rederer you idiot. Have you compiled a viewer. Have you done any source work what so ever. Your complaints about the scripting engine being detached from the sim are even more funny. One line of lsl used to bring the sim down by crashing the script VM. Or do you not remember the null give and count loop bug. Also this has been tested you idiot, otherwise ll wouldn't have broken this. Griffer viewers in 2008 used to do it. Particularly HXO and neil life. You have no idea what you are talking about. And I do not think singularity can upload mesh. Plus singularity's windlight cannot even hold a candle to V3. It is not a modern viewer they are back ports for a reason

So I propose a clear test for testing performance claims, you don't bother with it. I make no mention of crash bugs, you insist I did. You ask me if I have ever done source work

I'd suggest increasing your dosage, but I'm not a medical professional, consult your doctor.

Beezle Warburton · 02-27-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonya Souther

You do know who Latif is, don't you? The guy behind Radegast?

Which makes his public rage-on for Kadah even less classy.

Nebula · 02-27-2012, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonya Souther

You want to know the biggest server load caused by a viewer? It was when Phoenix added display name support. They weren't prepared for the feature to actually get used to that degree.

You do know who Latif is, don't you? The guy behind Radegast?

English is not his first language. Cut him some slack. Even raving assholes like him get a pass on grammar flubs as minor as his when they're not speaking their first language.

Yeah and isn't that a text viewer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa

So I propose a clear test for testing performance claims

since you are not to bright, if I post anything related to an active bug, I doubt chris or josh would like that. However because open sim is a different can of worms and sl has long since fixed this let me show you something that you may be able to comprehend.
default
{
state_entry()
{
jump l; string a; @l; (integer)a;
}
}
that used to crash sims and shut down the script vm, go test in older versions of open sim. Oh and seeing as how I was the person do discover the null count variable crasher as well which would crash any sim after ten seconds I think I know what I am talking about. I have recently gotten some good fixes dealing with script stupidity fixed and for that matter know a hell of a lot of what I am talking about. For that matter taking up memory active or inactive in scripts can easily cripple a sim. I could make a dummy alt and meet you on sl and show you that I can not only cripple the sim, but force all scripts to stop running by simply making new scripts that call a single function. However posting code that is a active bug and possible threat on a public form is something I will not do.

For that matter if he has done rade gast and he still thinks back porting makes a viewer not obsolete when it is on a horribly outdated code base. I shutter to think for his users.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 02-27-2012, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper

talk about irony, here we are in a thread in which the devs of a certain unmentioned TPV just got slapped for privacy invasion, one of the results of which was a royal screwing of product delivery due to scripts now being unable to detect online status before sending objects and thus getting around im capping delivery problems.....

a slapping which had to come because even after the debacle with the previous incarnation of the unmentioned TPV, these people had to stick it to the man.....

a thread full of people who compete to sell scripted objects to a market which cries out for more....

and some people think it's fine to shame that market for using those products instead of fixing the problem.

even the logic of shaming the end user is flawed. the end user isn't pumping out 1000's of scripted objects onto the grid, the creator is. but hey lets blame the girl with the scripted skirt and hair cause she's in front of us and ll has given us the powah to fix out little local problem. oh isnt x creator doing well this month?

get your heads out of your behinds, you are so full of what you've been lookin at you think it doesnt stink.

this is what is more likely to happen, those of us who buy those things will stop wasting money on them because we have no-where to wear them, while complete idiots think they are shaming us into "more responsible sharing of limited resources".

the first time a script nazi spoke to me was when i was in her shop, on her sim, about to buy one of her products!

yeah. that sale did not happen. that was pre lsl ablility using estate tools. just lately things are getting worse due to a new "tool" which sends a popup just to let me know that i'm using more than an ao's worth of scripts.

thanks sooooo much for that. i'll be so sure to visit all of the shops on your sim and buy all the lovely no mod scripted hair that i wont be able to wear here soon, and the nice scripted shoes which of course will languish in my inventory next to the hair.

because i just love to buy shit and leave it in my inventory.

you wanna fuck with me? lets dance.

wat

Latif Khalifa · 02-27-2012, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beezle Warburton

Which makes his public rage-on for Kadah even less classy.

Very seldom do I get accused of being classy

I just cannot tolerate spreading of FUD, fear-mongering, especially when it comes with supposed implied insider information. I've yet to hear Kadah explain how can he claim with such certainty that there will be this big license incompatible update that will make all V1 UI viewers impossible, or the other few doomsday's scenarios he outlined in the post I was responding to.

Nika Talaj · 02-27-2012, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whisper

you wanna fuck with me? lets dance.

OK, I'm not going to bother to catch up with this thread. But let me just say, this line made me really, REALLY, miss the east coast.

<and now, back to your regularly scheduled rancor>

Kadah Coba · 02-27-2012, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonya Souther

You want to know the biggest server load caused by a viewer? It was when Phoenix added display name support. They weren't prepared for the feature to actually get used to that degree.

Yeah, that was pretty bad. We deployed DN support just as LL went on holiday in December, little did either party know, the DN service couldn't handle any load greater than the comparative handful using it on Viewer 2. This lead to an unofficial policy of telling them we've adopted a new featre of theirs before we deploy, because it'll pretty much will double the numbers using it within a couple weeks.

Though it would have been nice if they had said something about the DN servers not being scaled for the possibility that more than a third of the grid using it. x3

Siana Gearz · 02-27-2012, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa

I didn't notice him participate. I don't think he spoke at all.

I think Simon was high on popcorn.

Nebula · 02-27-2012, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siana Gearz

I think Simon was high on popcorn.

Even though you won't move to v3, someone has to make 1.* workable for the ones who refuse to upgrade. At least Siana is a smart lady HIGH5

Siana Gearz · 02-27-2012, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebula

You mentioned crash bugs and you are ignorant. It is the v3 rendering pipe line not a rederer you idiot. Have you compiled a viewer. Have you done any source work what so ever. Your complaints about the scripting engine being detached from the sim are even more funny.

Let me make a short and incomplete list for you:

Maintainer of libopenmetaverse, only developer on it for the last couple of years
With it, maintainer of WinGridProxy and GridProxyApp
Developer/Maintainer of Radegast Viewer
Contributor of inventory links and other features to OpenSim core.
The go-to person for SL protocol analysis
Contributor to Singularity. He's constantly in touch with us, he knows EXACTLY what we're doing. He actually diffed it against Viewer 3 recently, as opposed to you.
Provider of some project infrastructure for Singularity quality assurance, including a build system.

Congratulations on reaching your new peak of embarrassment.

Yoshiko Fazuku · 02-27-2012, 10:39 PM

i believe Radegast is BSD licensed. I will leave it up to Nebula to comprehend what that means in regards to the term "v1.x veiwer codebase"

Siana Gearz · 02-27-2012, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoshiko Fazuku

i believe Radegast is BSD licensed. I will leave it up to Nebula to comprehend what that means in regards to the term "v1.x veiwer codebase"

What is your point? Radegast has no relationship to Viewer 1 or any other Linden codebase. It's a completely independent implementation, using libopenmetaverse as its core. It's written in an entirely different language and its code structure bears no similarity to Linden codebase.

P.S. your avatar is very ~~annoying~~addictive. I can't hold myself back from pointing my phone at it every time i see it. Damn QR codes are an obsession to me.

Han Held · 02-27-2012, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bladyblue

I believe the TPV users comprise a large enough audience willing to log into a OpenSim to test new features they want.

TPV users will mostly stay in SL, because that is where their friends are.

I'm sure the drama will pique some interest in other grids, but probably no more than usual.

So the problem remains --not enough kudos/feedback for it to be worth the TPV developer's time in migrating away from SL.

Yoshiko Fazuku · 02-27-2012, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siana Gearz

What is your point? Radegast has no relationship to Viewer 1 or any other Linden codebase. It's a completely independent implementation, using libopenmetaverse as its core. It's written in an entirely different language and its code structure bears no similarity to Linden codebase.

lol! I was trying to point out in a smug way that he does know what he is talking about because he wrote a viewer that shares no code with LL's gpl code. Im sure he knows what he is doing

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siana Gearz

P.S. your avatar is very annoying. I can't hold myself back from pointing my phone at it every time i see it. Damn QR codes are an obsession to me.

i think QR codes are neet!

Ann Otoole · 02-27-2012, 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa

From the blog comments:

So, tweak the user interface as much as you want. Don't touch other stuff until I approve it first. And you're too dumb to know if something will cause server issues. Yeah, that's Oz for you.

I disagree with your copying of Inara's blog comments over to here. The discussion was over there. Oz doesn't come here.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 02-27-2012, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siana Gearz

Let me make a short and incomplete list for you:

Maintainer of libopenmetaverse, only developer on it for the last couple of years
With it, maintainer of WinGridProxy and GridProxyApp
Developer/Maintainer of Radegast Viewer
Contributor of inventory links and other features to OpenSim core.
The go-to person for SL protocol analysis
Contributor to Singularity. He's constantly in touch with us, he knows EXACTLY what we're doing. He actually diffed it against Viewer 3 recently, as opposed to you.
Provider of some project infrastructure for Singularity quality assurance, including a build system.

Congratulations on reaching your new peak of embarrassment.

You make him sound much more grandiose than he actually is. There's been a handful of largely maintenance libopenmetaverse releases since he took "control" of it in 2010, primarily because those people who originally were involved (John Hurliman, who went on to work at IBM and now has his own startup, I believe; otakup0pe/Jonathan Freedman who works with John and the former Heretic Linden at the aformentioned startup, if memory serves; Jessie Malthus who sadly passed away in 2007; Adam Zaius who now works at Sinewave developing virtual worlds for commercial clients etc etc) have gone on to greater and more important pastures and he's managed to appropriate maintenance development of the library in absence of its original coders. Most of the people involved in creating it and OpenSim are working elsewhere (read: making money on their own or with high profile companies) and their interest is on other ventures. In any event, he didn't create libopenmetaverse; he's only assumed ownership of it when its original creators moved on because they felt it was largely stable.

Developing his viewer and contributing to yours aren't something I would put on an epeen bullet-point list either, especially given the reputation you have, but that's me. But wotevs, you two seem to get along pretty well. Must be because you're both raging gasbags.

02-27-2012, 08:10 PM	#701 (permalink)
Han Held Senior Member You can see it in her eyes Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,943 My Mood: SL Join Date: 04/06/2008 Client: Singularity 1.7.2, Firestorm Blog Entries: 1	It's clear that TPV development needs to go to opensim in order to get anything done. But the (extremely) low user numbers of opensim (the highest concurrencies atm are around 250-400 people, though I think 1-20 is closer to the average) means that there are not enough users to give the devs the ego boost needed to make the development work worthwhile. So, essentially, Linden Lab has now killed this platform, and all it can do from here is wither and die. That's extremely sad, but that's also life, too. __________________ Drama is easy with eyes closed misunderstanding all you read

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Posted By	For	Type	Date
#SL Viewer Policy Change Meeting	This thread	Refback	02-26-2012 09:12 PM
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02-27-2012, 08:12 PM	#702 (permalink)
Cerise Placeholder Mauves ovriers ne trovera ja bon hostill Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 1,720 My Mood: Client: SL Viewer 3	object script counts, some area search versions, temporary uploads are all features that went into popular TPVs and caused more server load than intended. Oz has a valid point on that one.

02-27-2012, 08:12 PM	#703 (permalink)
Soen Eber blink *SLU Supporter* don't need status Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Minneapolis, Minnesota, USA Posts: 3,373 My Mood:	All they need to do is provide an instrumented server instance for testing with various load levels, and the TPV community can go to town with any kind of changes they like. Why close off half or more of the client/server paradigm? Can I get a cat or a dog instead of a pony for making it to the end of the thread?

02-27-2012, 10:39 PM	#720 (permalink)
Yoshiko Fazuku Hopeless Otaku Girl tinkerbell is my drug dealer Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: USA Posts: 361 My Mood: SL Join Date: in the days of old when knights were bold and before prims were invented Business: Fazuku Brand Client: Avination Veiwer, Nirans	i believe Radegast is BSD licensed. I will leave it up to Nebula to comprehend what that means in regards to the term "v1.x veiwer codebase"

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