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Kadah Coba · 02-27-2012, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brenda Connolly

I have no insight into what goes on in the developers world, or just about any spect of geekdom for that matter, but I'm curious about one thing. Why do the people who make Firestorm, or at least those that post here see so hell bent on trying to get everyone and their mother using it and are terrified of people not using it. I understand you want your work recognized and appreciated and that's fine. But most of the other TPVers who I am aware of, seem to be making a viewer that they want firstly, and if others use it, great. Henri seems especially abivalent towards his viewer being "popular'. I get the impression that he couldn't care less how many people use CV, and even though he listens to suggestions, nothing is going into his viewer that he doesn't want.

I apologize if my tone has made me seem that way. I don't care what viewer anyone uses as long as it works for them and is fallowing most of the rules, but I think I've failed to convey it that way. I switched to Phoenix because it became (with some help >.>) a lot like my personally favorite viewer, Meerkat, but had spell check and http textures. 2.x and 3.x suck for me still. I don't have anything against any viewer (except Emerald), or anyone here, even the ones that are seem to be insulting me. And I'm gonna give up on spreading LL rumors since its apparent that I'm no good at it.

Voodoo Radek · 02-27-2012, 05:45 PM

Greetings folks!

I am confused on the tag matter, the last thing i have read is that LL will allow them only if the viewer offer it like an option, but not as tag...

... when you writte something in the chat it would be preceded by the name of your viewer. Anounce the viewer using tags will be not allowed. Whats the true in this?

Kadah Coba · 02-27-2012, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chalice Yao

Andromeda Rage · 02-27-2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Radek

Greetings folks!

I am confused on the tag matter, the last thing i have read is that LL will allow them only if the viewer offer it like an option, but not as tag...

... when you writte something in the chat it would be preceded by the name of your viewer. Anounce the viewer using tags will be not allowed. Whats the true in this?

No tags at all, not even an opt-in option. LL is breaking them with the next server rollout Tuesday/Wednesday.

Kadah Coba · 02-27-2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Radek

Greetings folks!

I am confused on the tag matter, the last thing i have read is that LL will allow them only if the viewer offer it like an option, but not as tag...

... when you writte something in the chat it would be preceded by the name of your viewer. Anounce the viewer using tags will be not allowed. Whats the true in this?

2.i and 2.j say viewers can't have tags on your name badge or elsewhere unless its a field the user can put stuff in and does so themselves, like a group title.

That other thing was aimed at the Phoenix Firestorm Support Chat which when using either of those viewers will prepend chat sent to that group with the viewer name so they can helped faster, or something.

Brenda Connolly · 02-27-2012, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadah Coba

I apologize if my tone has made me seem that way. I don't care what viewer anyone uses as long as it works for them and is fallowing most of the rules, but I think I've failed to convey it that way. I switched to Phoenix because it became (with some help >.>) a lot like my personally favorite viewer, Meerkat, but had spell check and http textures. 2.x and 3.x suck for me still. I don't have anything against any viewer (except Emerald), or anyone here, even the ones that are seem to be insulting me. And I'm gonna give up on spreading LL rumors since its apparent that I'm no good at it.

No need for apologies. I was referring to others.

Nebula · 02-27-2012, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa

If you are referring to Emerald banning, that was clear as day to everyone watching.

No it really was clear as mud, some people just didn't get it, maybe because they really didn't know what was up. They tried to watch but may have not understood. I know because I had to explain this to many people after it happened.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Dejavu

Exactly, it's so TPV users can't spot the minority of people who aren't using one.

YOU NO ON TPV, WHY YOU NO USE!!!!!1

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa

They have never said they will block or break V1 UI viewers. That is something entirely invented by the Firestorm development team members. One of those that perpetuates this myth is yourself.

I laughed so hard I nearly sharted. Are you silly in the brain my friend. No they may not directly block or break them, however at some point it is bound to happen. Second life stopped using the 1.* code base and there is only so much to be done with it. The back porting of features and the finishing other peoples features is something that TPV's do not need to do. Viewer 2.* or 3.* may not be the best thing out there, however it is supported by the lab and is their current code base. By using 1.* and clinging to it, you are simply using something that is out of date. The reason someone could assume it will be blocked or broken, is that over time it eventually will be. We don't know when that point will be, but it will happen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latif Khalifa

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding of the impact scripts have on the simulator performance. People obsess about things like script numbers, which are very poor indicators of the actual impact.

First of all, the scripting engine is totally decoupled from the simulator when it comes to the processing time. So you can have 100s of scripts that do something very CPU intensive, like calculate the prime numbers, without this introducing any lag on the sim. The only thing that will happen is that all the scripts will run slower, but the simulator gives the scripting engine it's slice which is never exceeded. And this actually works pretty well, it does not introduce "rubber-banding" or other visible lag effects, you can test it yourself.

You are just silly, ll disabled the make tons of new scripts from viewers in a box for a reason. You used to be able to crash sims by just making new scripts. High enough numbers matter. And even more so if they are running and MONO. Some idiot came into my sim with a 232 link set of hair with a script in each one that was actively running. Further more crashing the mono VM will bring the simulator down. I tested it today and am documenting this bug after a recent one I just documented. It is all pretty in theory, but go test them first in sims dedicated for this. The crash me region should be alive on the beta grid and the island for unit test and bug island for lesser bugs.

Kara Spengler · 02-27-2012, 06:43 PM

Oh joy, Tateru posted that the initial Oz comments were not official. So we are left with a policy that has less clarification than before.

Ilana Debevec · 02-27-2012, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kara Spengler

I think my fave was when I needed to do midnight processing on a mainframe. A user was late getting their stuff entered for that day so asked if I could delay it.

A simple headdesk does not even come anywhere close to sufficing when someone asks you to delay midnight (forget the other networked computers). Maybe I should have invoked Zaphod?

See you and raise you... my brother worked a tech support desk long time ago, one person was having problems making a spread sheet work right and he told them to make a copy of the disc and send it interoffice mail and her would take a look.

Take a guess what was in the envelope next morning. (he swears it's true!)

Kadah Coba · 02-27-2012, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilana Debevec

See you and raise you... my brother worked a tech support desk long time ago, one person was having problems making a spread sheet work right and he told them to make a copy of the disc and send it interoffice mail and her would take a look.

Take a guess what was in the envelope next morning. (he swears it's true!)

A xerox copy of the disc?

Gabriell Anatra · 02-27-2012, 06:49 PM

Great.

LL really is just like a magic 8-ball.

Kara Spengler · 02-27-2012, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ilana Debevec

See you and raise you... my brother worked a tech support desk long time ago, one person was having problems making a spread sheet work right and he told them to make a copy of the disc and send it interoffice mail and her would take a look.

Take a guess what was in the envelope next morning. (he swears it's true!)

"Make a copy of file X so I can do some test edits."

"It is just a link to file Y so you actually want a new copy of Y, I will copy Y for you."

"NO!!!!! Copy X not Y."

"Okay."

(time passes)

"Why did my changes to the new copy show up in X?"

Brenda Connolly · 02-27-2012, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriell Anatra

Great.

LL really is just like a magic 8-ball.

It's Magic, Fuck You!

David Sleaze Punk Magician - YouTube

Trinity Dejavu · 02-27-2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gabriell Anatra

Great.

LL really is just like a magic 8-ball.

You find an 8 Ball, would you like to ...
[SHAKE] [HURL] [BOWL] [INSERT INTO SLOT B]

Cincia Singh · 02-27-2012, 07:04 PM

I suppose all will be made clearer, at least with respect to the immediate effects, tomorrow (Tuesday) after the rolling restarts. This could be epic ... or much ado about nothing. Someone should start a count-down clock.

Beezle Warburton · 02-27-2012, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kadah Coba

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. I'll stop eating bait and go back to good old fashion "popcorn" from now on.

I think caviar started as a trick to get rich people to eat bait.

Latif Khalifa · 02-27-2012, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebula

I laughed so hard I nearly sharted. Are you silly in the brain my friend. No they may not directly block or break them, however at some point it is bound to happen. Second life stopped using the 1.* code base and there is only so much to be done with it. The back porting of features and the finishing other peoples features is something that TPV's do not need to do. Viewer 2.* or 3.* may not be the best thing out there, however it is supported by the lab and is their current code base. By using 1.* and clinging to it, you are simply using something that is out of date. The reason someone could assume it will be blocked or broken, is that over time it eventually will be. We don't know when that point will be, but it will happen.

I'm glad your ignorance gives you amusement. Now go back to read what I wrote about modern viewers such as Singularity. You cannot really called them V1 based anymore. It's really V1 UI viewer with V3 renderer and other guts. Nothing to get obsoleted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebula

You are just silly, ll disabled the make tons of new scripts from viewers in a box for a reason. You used to be able to crash sims by just making new scripts. High enough numbers matter. And even more so if they are running and MONO. Some idiot came into my sim with a 232 link set of hair with a script in each one that was actively running. Further more crashing the mono VM will bring the simulator down. I tested it today and am documenting this bug after a recent one I just documented. It is all pretty in theory, but go test them first in sims dedicated for this. The crash me region should be alive on the beta grid and the island for unit test and bug island for lesser bugs.

You are being incoherent. What does crash bugs have to do anything? I said CPU usage of scripts does not affect sim lag anymore. I also proposed a test that will allow you to verify this claim. Make CPU only script, and clone 100 of them, crunch prime numbers, than walk around the sim and see if it lags you.

I clearly outlined the cases when and what matters. Are you disputing that 1 temp rezzer will not be far forse for sim performance than 232 hair resizer idle scripts?

bladyblue · 02-27-2012, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kara Spengler

Oh joy, Tateru posted that the initial Oz comments were not official. So we are left with a policy that has less clarification than before.

And the Monday morning back-peddling begins.....

Shyotl · 02-27-2012, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kara Spengler

Oh joy, Tateru posted that the initial Oz comments were not official. So we are left with a policy that has less clarification than before.

I for one am shocked by this turn of events. Shocked!

Hitomi Tiponi · 02-27-2012, 07:34 PM

Tateru has now had some official responses to her questions from LL and hopes to put up a blog post soon (when some follow-up questions have been responded to).

There are at least four threads about the new TPV policy changes on the official forums as well - with all this activity I expect we will hear something more official from someone at LL soon.

Ossian · 02-27-2012, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitomi Tiponi

... with all this activity I expect we will hear something more official from someone at LL soon.

Do you really? I'm not trying to be contentious, honestly, but it seems that their history and practice is to just let us stew.

Trinity Dejavu · 02-27-2012, 07:39 PM

Inara has also had a response from Oz Linden
LL update their TPV Policy | Living in the Modem World

Latif Khalifa · 02-27-2012, 07:56 PM

From the blog comments:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inara

But in trying to ring-fence specific aspects of Viewer development, Linden Lab risks unravelling what has otherwise been years of highly innovative and beneficial (for users, to the grid and to LL itself) Viewer development which has not only dramatically improved their product as a whole, but which has been able respond to user requests and implement them with a level of flexibility and imagination that Linden Lab cannot hope to emulate, allowing the Lab to remain focused on core issues.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oz Linden

Actually, you’ve hit on the central rationale for that rule… we want to focus on core issues, and that means things that affect what the world is, and how it behaves. We encourage third party Viewer developers to innovate with user interfaces and controls (which is both what most TPV users cite as the reasons they use them, and the vast majority of all TPV changes).

We want to be sure that development of features that can affect all users is done in such a way that they 1) don’t cause problems with the server systems (something TPV developers don’t have a good way to check on their own), 2) fit into Second Life as a whole, and 3) are available to all Viewers in an orderly way. We are already working with open source feature developers in this way, and look forward to more.

So, tweak the user interface as much as you want. Don't touch other stuff until I approve it first. And you're too dumb to know if something will cause server issues. Yeah, that's Oz for you.

Hitomi Tiponi · 02-27-2012, 08:04 PM

I think his first two points are reasonable (but LL could be provided with a copy of a proposed change for testing to satisfy point 1) but it is the third that is the killer because only those features that LL "want" to do will get done - and very few long-term residents trust LL to understand user priorities or needs.

Latif Khalifa · 02-27-2012, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hitomi Tiponi

I think his first two points are reasonable (but LL could be provided with a copy of a proposed change for testing to satisfy point 1) but it is the third that is the killer because only those features that LL "want" to do will get done - and very few long-term residents trust LL to understand user priorities or needs.

Of course nobody wants to cause issues with the servers. But is the only way not to do that for a feature to be included in the official viewer? Does adding some text to parcel description harm servers? And even if we were unsure, can't we just ask LL? Why does it have to be included in their viewer to accomplish to figure out that there are no harmful effects.

02-27-2012, 05:45 PM	#677 (permalink)
Voodoo Radek Member Look behind you! Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 95 My Mood: SL Join Date: 13/08/07 Business: Capsule Tech.	Greetings folks! I am confused on the tag matter, the last thing i have read is that LL will allow them only if the viewer offer it like an option, but not as tag... ... when you writte something in the chat it would be preceded by the name of your viewer. Anounce the viewer using tags will be not allowed. Whats the true in this? __________________

02-27-2012, 07:04 PM	#690 (permalink)
Cincia Singh Senior Member Nitwit magnet Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Chicago USA Posts: 3,853 My Mood: SL Join Date: 06/07 Business: Smooth Jazz Club & Lounge Client: Firestorm, SL Dev Viewer, Exodus, CoolVL Blog Entries: 6	I suppose all will be made clearer, at least with respect to the immediate effects, tomorrow (Tuesday) after the rolling restarts. This could be epic ... or much ado about nothing. Someone should start a count-down clock. __________________ *My concern can be measured in micro give-a-shits, and I'm working on nanotechnology!*

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LinkBacks (?) LinkBack to this Thread: http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/alternative-sl-clients/69990-new-tpv-policy-changes.html
Posted By	For	Type	Date
#SL Viewer Policy Change Meeting	This thread	Refback	02-26-2012 09:12 PM
Viewer för Second Life standardiseras « Prim Team	This thread	Pingback	02-25-2012 06:40 AM

02-27-2012, 06:49 PM	#686 (permalink)
Gabriell Anatra Imp Who are you? Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Somewhere else. Posts: 2,288 SL Join Date: Early '06 or late '05, not sure. Client: Singularity	Great. LL really is just like a magic 8-ball.

02-27-2012, 07:34 PM	#695 (permalink)
Hitomi Tiponi Miss StarLight The little dabbler Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Variable Posts: 2,673 SL Join Date: 06/12/08	Tateru has now had some official responses to her questions from LL and hopes to put up a blog post soon (when some follow-up questions have been responded to). There are at least four threads about the new TPV policy changes on the official forums as well - with all this activity I expect we will hear something more official from someone at LL soon.

02-27-2012, 07:39 PM	#697 (permalink)
Trinity Dejavu Just a Glitch Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Placebo Posts: 350 My Mood: SL Join Date: 11/11/2006 Business: Catznip Client: Catznip	Inara has also had a response from Oz Linden LL update their TPV Policy \| Living in the Modem World

02-27-2012, 08:04 PM	#699 (permalink)
Hitomi Tiponi Miss StarLight The little dabbler Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Variable Posts: 2,673 SL Join Date: 06/12/08	I think his first two points are reasonable (but LL could be provided with a copy of a proposed change for testing to satisfy point 1) but it is the third that is the killer because only those features that LL "want" to do will get done - and very few long-term residents trust LL to understand user priorities or needs.

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