Elysium Hynes

I´m a bit confused of this change password talk, is this just random rumours? What´s going on here?

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Chalice Yao

It's just sillytalk. I don't even think it qualifies as rumors.

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Mabb Dilweg

I apologise Niran, and thank you for clarifying

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ShrugDangle

I apologize for scaring the crap out of you.

It would be a logical fallacy to presume I was talking about all TPV's of course, just this incredibly shady one.

Mabb Dilweg

OK so forgive me, but making a statement that pretty much accuses the developers of illegal activity, purely on the basis that you personally think they're "shady", is irresponsible on so many levels - the most important of which is a distinct lack of respect for the SLU community. You don't drop a bomb like that with no explanation or justification.

I have no problem with people expressing their opinion, or their reservations about this or that, but if you are making a specific accusation, or giving a specific warning about a Serious Matter (like "change your password") you should provide context and substantiation OR qualify it to indicate it's your personal opinion. In the same post. Doesn't count when it had to be dragged out of you over the course of a few days.

Frankly, I don't give a rigged toss of my mesh hair about this viewer, and I don't think very highly of them either, because of the attribution crap they pulled, but it's drawing a long bow to go from unethical to criminal.

"I think these people are really shady and this is why [insert some facts here]" would NOT have caused alarm. And if you have nothing to back your claims of criminal activity, then don't make them. Please.

Lil Hapmouche

But that would probably ruin the effect that such ordinary and pointless statements have, as in suggesting "Look at me, I'm so knowledgable, I know stuff you don't know, but of course I won't share because I'm so special".

Or someone is just new to trolling and doesn't know the finer details of that art yet, hence the miserable attempt at it.

Inhandra

What in the world? Did y'all read this thread at all?

Someone commented on the Zen viewer developer that they had incorrectly or not attributed at all work done by someone else. This sent the Z-Dev into a "silent" hissyfit, where they REMOVED several people's names from the credits list on their wiki. When THIS was pointed out, they did it more, and flooded their wiki with miniscule edits to hide the fact. One of the edits they attempted to cover up was along the lines of "hahahaha".

I'd say that's pretty shady, childish behavior.

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Trasee Darkwatch

Not only that, but untrustworthy behavior as well. If you can't trust a person enough to credit properly and act like an adult, then how can you trust a person with your password or any other sensitive information?

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Innula Zenovka

Yeah, it's the sort of behaviour I associate with people like some former Emerald devs, and since all I know about the person behind this viewer is that this is how they've behaved on this occasion, I don't see the point of taking any risks I don't need to.

I've no reason to believe they would steal anyone's password, but their behaviour persuades me it would prudent not even to give them the chance to steal mine.

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Lil Hapmouche

I've read as much as the not giving credit issues, yes.

However, if that behaviour was the reason to come to the "better change your password" conclusion, it wouldn't have been too hard to write "better change your password because of the not trustworthy behaviour of the coder in other regards".

A blunt general statement as it was made can mean anything and the world and instead of explaining that general statement, it was only underlined by a bunch of attitude.

It is quite a different pair of shoes if someone isn't willing or isn't capable to get their credits and documentation properly done or if someone is deliberatly out to abuse user data. If there is reason to fear the latter, why not explain yourself and point out any facts that you know? Anything else just comes across as attention-whoring and doesn't contribute to give others a basis to form their opinion.

But based on the previous reaction, I don't even expect that there'll be some kind of insightful answer.

Mabb Dilweg

I agree, and said so in my post. But as I also said, unethical is one thing. Criminal is another. And if there is no evidence of criminal behaviour then, well, there is none.

Mabb Dilweg

Thank you both That is a far better way to inform/warn people who may not know about the background here, that they should exercise prudence using this viewer.

FYI, I agree that caution should be taken, but I also believe that as a community we should be responsible about expressing our opinions.

ShrugDangle

I agree with you completely on principle.

It's extremely hard for me to veil my contempt for this viewer and it's developer however after considering how they've behaved and effectively stolen code from some of the hardest working people in the TPV community. That offends my ethical sensibilities deeply, and I'm sure it does quite a few others on here as well.

So if I can dissuade someone from using this viewer in any way I'm going to. Perhaps my wise crack wasn't understood completely because you hadn't read the entire thread. I apologize if that was the case.

Lil Hapmouche

Thanks, but no, thanks. No need for your belittering if you only want to touch up your ego as saviour of the poor, blissfully unaware user souls. After all, lying is such a much better option than just providing facts.

Anyway, I couldn't care less for that viewer, since I always fall back to the one that provides me with those options I'm addicted to. But actually, now I'm tempted to try this one just because...

By the way, what was that drama with KirstenLee and violating GPL standards back in the day? The issue that got more or less ignored because the graphic options were more interesting than some licensing details?

Mabb Dilweg

By all means express your opinion and share your knowledge, but please do so in a constructive manner. Constructive to the person you're addressing that is. Nobody is asking you to veil your contempt - that would be rather hypocritical on SLU What I'm asking is that you express it with context and information rather than bald statements that really have no meaning.

I don't think I'm the only person who ignores unsupported assertions and as such, it didn't alarm me at all. I *was* curious to know on what basis you made that suggestion to someone who was obviously not an SLU regular.

If your goal was to express your opinion/knowledge about a subject you're passionate about then it failed. If your goal was to dissuade someone from using this particular viewer then it failed. It's also pretty naive to assume that someone has read everything that's been posted here on SLU, or even that they've read all of the current thread.

The onus is on the writer to ensure clarity, not the reader.

Trinity Dejavu

I disagree.

If you are just going to dive to the end of a thread 12 pages deep, don't be surprised if you find glib remarks lacking ALL context. Especially when the remark is made by the OP of the very same thread.

In this case the comment was made to suggest a lack of trust. If you can't trust a developer to be honest / mature / responsible in one area , how can you trust them to be in others.

Trust is very very important in all open source projects as believe it or not, the published sources don't have to have anything to do with the published binary, and while it might seem logical to assume code + compiler = identical_results it's much more complicated than that. The reality being that unless you are inspecting the source by hand and then compiling it yourself, the developers word is all you have.

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Inhandra

So, sorry to bring this back from the dead, but I noticed that by now most of the names on the credits page have been put back, with one exception.

https://bitbucket.org/Zena_Juran/zen...ecial%20Thanks

Kitty Barnett's name is still not there, but Ima's is back. Now, I'm no coder, nor am I terribly adept at muddling through things like Github and Bitbucket, so how would one tell if he took out all code by Kitty to be able to leave her name off the list? Is this viewer in violation of something for not properly attributing, still? I also saw that Chalice's name was removed, last revision.

I'd like to give it another whirl, but I don't want to touch it unless everything is kosher.

Trasee Darkwatch

Personally, I still won't touch it. His actions earlier left a bad taste in my mouth, and it would take a lot to get that trust back, and it would have to start with a public apology.

Inhandra

I am hopeful that Zena has had time to reflect on this by now and realized what happened wasn't the best of actions. An apology to those wronged would be nice, yeah.

Lord

Zen Viewer has been removed from the Third Party Viewer Directory and has closed it's Bitbucket download page.

Inhandra

Oh wow. Any word on what happened?

Innula Zenovka

According to Inara Pey, it was delisted at the developer's request.

I thought I'd seen an announcement by Oz to that effect in the wiki updates feed, but I can't find it anywhere now, so I may have imagined that.

It doesn't seem terribly surprising to me. I mean, if the developer has decided that maintaining it is too much work, for whatever reason, or has lost interest, then with the Bakefail changes coming along in a few weeks' time to break everything that's not being maintained, it makes sense to ask for it to be removed. I see Phoenix has been removed too, for that reason.

Inhandra

I'd have thought that would be as easy as just a merge, but I guess I am mistaken. I'd have thought they'd just focus on OpenSim, but the repo closing tells me otherwise. Oh well.

I know of someone who likes and uses it. They'll be disappointed to get this news.

Innula Zenovka

What I meant was that if the developer has lost interest, for whatever reason, or doesn't have the time to maintain it properly any more, now would be a good time to knock it on the head, rather than waste time on a last update and then leave an unmaintained, or minimally maintained, viewer to linger on the TPV list, like Imprudence or Phoenix have done, becoming increasingly moribund.

Lord

While I agree with Innula's assessment...I tried another 'hunch' and put just 'Zen Viewer' in my browser search and came up with an app for Apple Ipads that may have sent a cease and desist order: Introducing Zen Viewer HD for iPad – The Ultimate File Viewer | SlapApp.com


They probably wouldn't be happy that thier app didn't always get top billing in searches ?