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Morgoth · 01-26-2012, 02:16 PM

I cannot get used to Firestorm. I actually far prefer the official viewer in terms of ease of use, although obviously it's missing a few essential features (like area search.. I used that one so much).

But Phoenix is my favourite, still.

Inhandra · 01-26-2012, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

I actually far prefer the official viewer in terms of ease of use, although obviously it's missing a few essential features (like area search.. I used that one so much).

NaCl could be your next very best friend, then. :3 The UI is virtually untouched save for some menu additions for features, and has area search (as well as RLV, spam protection, asset blacklist, etc).

Niran's has area search as well, but the UI has been heavily tampered with. It also has RLV and other assorted goodies. Still quite a good, fast viewer though.

Kara Spengler · 01-26-2012, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka

I didn't mention Firestorm. I said I'd always found Cool VL and Singularity far faster than Phoenix, and that Cool VL was considerably more stable than either.

Doh! I was a bit out of it when I made that post.

Han Held · 01-27-2012, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Han Held

Let me be blunt; at this point in time most of the phoenix fanboys are whiny brats that the firestorm project would do well to cut loose. The only good done by pandering to them is that by keeping them on phoenix, Henri isn't stuck dealing with them.

AAAAAaaaaaannd...my Brand new Mac crashes every time I log into SL w/ Firestorm. So I'm back to using Phoenix.

Hitomi Tiponi · 01-27-2012, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morgoth

I cannot get used to Firestorm. I actually far prefer the official viewer in terms of ease of use, although obviously it's missing a few essential features (like area search.. I used that one so much).

But Phoenix is my favourite, still.

If you set Firestorm to the StarLight Original Teal skin and 'V3' mode you should get an experience quite close to the LL Viewer (prior to 3.2) with the extra features. And there is planned to be a FUI version of Firestorm (matching the new toolbar stuff in 3.2) in the future.

Potosi · 01-27-2012, 10:58 PM

What drove me crazy with V2 and Firestorm was the chat set up. All the little boxes along the bottom of the screen. That and I don't need the persons little profile pick whenever I'm talking to them. Was there ever and alternative chat layout in there someplace?

That and I've had a few odd experiences with Firestorm. My laptop graphics card heats up rather quickly when I use it. To the point to where I can feel the heat through the section of the keyboard that is above it. Not sure why this is, heck I used to do WoW WoTLK raids on this thing with no problems like that at all. Phoenix doesn't give me this issue either.

These are the reasons I'm still on the old Phoenix viewer. Plus I've never once griped at the dev folks at all. So not all of us are crazies.

Grid Strom · 01-28-2012, 01:44 AM

I loaded some ones profile the other day, went to make a coffie while it loaded, I returned to a message about the profile not being able to load and to contact support.

ShrugDangle · 01-28-2012, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Han Held

AAAAAaaaaaannd...my Brand new Mac crashes every time I log into SL w/ Firestorm. So I'm back to using Phoenix.

Did you get one with the Intel GPU?

Mine is a 2010 model with the dual GPU (Intel/Nvidia) set up but I've heard some of the newer Macbook Pros come with just the Intel GPU by itself.

If that's the case that explains your problem entirely. It's not the viewer.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 01-28-2012, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShrugDangle

Did you get one with the Intel GPU?

Mine is a 2010 model with the dual GPU (Intel/Nvidia) set up but I've heard some of the newer Macbook Pros come with just the Intel GPU by itself.

If that's the case that explains your problem entirely. It's not the viewer.

This isn't true at all. The models with only the Intel HD 3000 benchmark at nearly identical performance with the previous gen Nvidia 320 M.

I don't use Phoenix but my main machine is a 2011 11" MacBook Air. I use SL regularly with no problems.

Han Held · 01-28-2012, 02:10 AM

Nope, not an Intel (or Nvidia) GPU:

Quote:

AMD Radeon HD 6750M:

Chipset Model: AMD Radeon HD 6750M
Type: GPU
Bus: PCIe
PCIe Lane Width: x16
VRAM (Total): 512 MB

Also, I seem to be able to log in to OSGrid with FS just fine; it's just SL where it crashes on login.

ShrugDangle · 01-28-2012, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potosi

That and I've had a few odd experiences with Firestorm. My laptop graphics card heats up rather quickly when I use it. To the point to where I can feel the heat through the section of the keyboard that is above it. Not sure why this is, heck I used to do WoW WoTLK raids on this thing with no problems like that at all. Phoenix doesn't give me this issue either.

It's because Firestorm is actually using your graphics card.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 01-28-2012, 02:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShrugDangle

It's because Firestorm is actually using your graphics card.

lolwut

They all "actually" use the graphics card, champ.

ShrugDangle · 01-28-2012, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

This isn't true at all. The models with only the Intel HD 3000 benchmark at nearly identical performance with the previous gen Nvidia 320 M.

I don't use Phoenix but my main machine is a 2011 11" MacBook Air. I use SL regularly with no problems.

Ok I stand corrected then.

You know I love to hate on Intel GPUs but it's mostly because Intel loves to throw their Windows (mostly laptop) customers under the bus.

ShrugDangle · 01-28-2012, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

lolwut

They all "actually" use the graphics card, champ.

Howso?

If you want to talk technical we can.

**Joshua Nightshade** · 01-28-2012, 02:48 AM

No, please, you go ahead and explain what magic you think Firestorm is doing.

**Hana** · 01-28-2012, 03:09 AM

i wanna know too!

ShrugDangle · 01-28-2012, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

No, please, you go ahead and explain what magic you think Firestorm is doing.

Ok here's how it works in layman's terms but it's going to be lengthy.

With OpenGL anything that's not executed on the hardware of your GPU is sent to the CPU to be processed or it's simply not rendered at all. This happens a lot with deprecated OpenGL calls.

When you start an OpenGL application, the application asks the drivers what the GPU can do.The driver returns back a HUGE list of features it has. As hardware has advanced this list has gotten longer and longer. Here's a very abbreviated example for an Nvidia 570:

Code:

       <string>GL_ARB_base_instance</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_blend_func_extended</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_color_buffer_float</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_compatibility</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_compressed_texture_pixel_storage</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_conservative_depth</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_copy_buffer</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_depth_buffer_float</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_depth_clamp</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_depth_texture</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_draw_buffers</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_draw_buffers_blend</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_draw_indirect</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_draw_instanced</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_ES2_compatibility</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_explicit_attrib_location</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_fragment_coord_conventions</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_fragment_program</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_fragment_program_shadow</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_fragment_shader</string>
                <string>GL_ARB_framebuffer_object</string>

A few years back the OpenGL board got together and decided that with all of these new GPUs coming out adding features that list was getting way out of hand, so they met and decided that they should simplify this list with a required set of features, they called this the "Core profile". Anything outside of that core profile was optional and could be deprecated.

V1, Snowglobe, V2, and early V3 viewers used a renderer written back in the early 2000's that relied on these older, soon to be deprecated OpenGL calls. The good thing about them is they're not really taxing on the hardware, are usually really fast, and very well debugged for the most part. The bad part is that as more and more of these features are dropped out of drivers they end up getting executed by the CPU or not rendered at all, even if the GPU had the hardware capability to render it.

So Linden Labs decided to rewrite the rendering code in V3 (SH-2240) so that the viewer relied more on the OpenGL 3.2 Core Profile. This means more stuff is getting sent to the GPU to be rendered rather than falling back to the CPU. It also means that things like shadows and all the other eye candy they've been adding gets rendered on the GPU. That's why you see less of a performance hit when you turn on shadows in V3/Firestorm than you do in Phoenix.

This of course put some users in a Catch-22 situation. Some GPU manufacturers either didn't have the core profile completely implemented (ATI/AMD) or didn't even bother trying (Intel) in their drivers. So in those situations where your GPU driver doesn't have the Core Profile implemented properly, the viewer falls back on a compatibility context (think safe mode). Macs are running in this context all the time by the way. Macs either use the OpenGL 2.1 or 3.2 Core but not all GPUs that Apple puts in their Macs (Intel) support OpenGL 3.2. That's also why RenderGLCoreProfile:True does nothing on a Mac.

So the best advice I can give is to buy Nvidia and/or keep your graphics drivers updated. AMD/ATI is getting better by the day so I can't really dog them, just make absolutely certain you keep up with your drivers.

So that's why it's actually using the GPU, or I should say "it's using more of the GPU than it used to".

**Joshua Nightshade** · 01-28-2012, 03:43 AM

Okay. And the official viewer is doing this as well. It's not Firestorm specific.

ShrugDangle · 01-28-2012, 04:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Okay. And the official viewer is doing this as well. It's not Firestorm specific.

Yep they use the same renderer for the most part; with the exception of probably Exodus I don't think any of the TPV teams have graphics programmers to modify the code.

I think Firestorm release (3.2.2) is using a version from early on so a lot more bugfixes have gone in since then. I've found that the some later builds I've compiled myself from the source repository have been a lot more stable.

Dolly · 01-28-2012, 04:21 AM

The official V3 viewer, yes...but not Phoenix...

ShrugDangle · 01-28-2012, 04:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dolly

The official V3 viewer, yes...but not Phoenix...

I've always been curious about that. I use Phoenix for Inworldz and I know they're using the patch Henri made from working in some of the V3 rendering stuff, but I don't know what version of V2/V3 he borrowed it from or if he ever updated it with the SH-2240 fixes.

Dolly · 01-28-2012, 04:41 AM

Henri has ported the renderer from LL's v2.6 viewer into Cool VL, which I believe was long before LL began work on the shining fixes, (and thus the OpenGL compatibility issues you explained so well above).

**bronxelf** · 01-28-2012, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Potosi

What drove me crazy with V2 and Firestorm was the chat set up. All the little boxes along the bottom of the screen. That and I don't need the persons little profile pick whenever I'm talking to them. Was there ever and alternative chat layout in there someplace?

That and I've had a few odd experiences with Firestorm. My laptop graphics card heats up rather quickly when I use it. To the point to where I can feel the heat through the section of the keyboard that is above it. Not sure why this is, heck I used to do WoW WoTLK raids on this thing with no problems like that at all. Phoenix doesn't give me this issue either.

These are the reasons I'm still on the old Phoenix viewer. Plus I've never once griped at the dev folks at all. So not all of us are crazies.

Firestorm will dock chat windows in with local chat, in V1 style. It's the reason I flat refuse to USE LL official- they won't give you an option to do that.

Han Held · 01-28-2012, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshua Nightshade

Okay. And the official viewer is doing this as well. It's not Firestorm specific.

AAAAAAAnnnd the official viewer is crashing for me on Lion, as well.

Fuckity fuck fuck fuck.

Lloyd Newman · 01-28-2012, 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grid Strom

I loaded some ones profile the other day, went to make a coffie while it loaded, I returned to a message about the profile not being able to load and to contact support.

Check the problem logs.

They were having issues with profiles, across the board, a couple of days ago. They weren't loading for anyone.

01-27-2012, 10:58 PM	#56 (permalink)
Potosi collared, owned, content OCCUPY Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,061 My Mood: Business: The Abonwood Collection Client: Phoenix Blog Entries: 2	What drove me crazy with V2 and Firestorm was the chat set up. All the little boxes along the bottom of the screen. That and I don't need the persons little profile pick whenever I'm talking to them. Was there ever and alternative chat layout in there someplace? That and I've had a few odd experiences with Firestorm. My laptop graphics card heats up rather quickly when I use it. To the point to where I can feel the heat through the section of the keyboard that is above it. Not sure why this is, heck I used to do WoW WoTLK raids on this thing with no problems like that at all. Phoenix doesn't give me this issue either. These are the reasons I'm still on the old Phoenix viewer. Plus I've never once griped at the dev folks at all. So not all of us are crazies. __________________ http://yetanothersecondlifeblog.blogspot.com/ My little blog about Second Life. Some ranting, some advice, some adult content, just a mix of randomness. Find me on Twitter @potosiabonwood

01-28-2012, 03:09 AM	#66 (permalink)
Hana - mercurial heathen - *SLU Supporter* in my own world Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 1,922 My Mood: SL Join Date: 4/11/2006	i wanna know too! __________________

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01-26-2012, 02:16 PM	#51 (permalink)
Morgoth Senior Member Splendidly Sesquipedalian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,231	I cannot get used to Firestorm. I actually far prefer the official viewer in terms of ease of use, although obviously it's missing a few essential features (like area search.. I used that one so much). But Phoenix is my favourite, still.

01-28-2012, 01:44 AM	#57 (permalink)
Grid Strom Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 249	I loaded some ones profile the other day, went to make a coffie while it loaded, I returned to a message about the profile not being able to load and to contact support.

01-28-2012, 02:48 AM	#65 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Lustful Cockmonster *SLU Supporter* Unedited Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 51,807 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2004 Blog Entries: 1	No, please, you go ahead and explain what magic you think Firestorm is doing.

01-28-2012, 03:43 AM	#68 (permalink)
Joshua Nightshade Lustful Cockmonster *SLU Supporter* Unedited Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 51,807 My Mood: SL Join Date: October 2004 Blog Entries: 1	Okay. And the official viewer is doing this as well. It's not Firestorm specific.

01-28-2012, 04:21 AM	#70 (permalink)
Dolly Resident Sweetie Sweeter than sweets Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 155 My Mood: Client: Firestorm, Cool VL viewer	The official V3 viewer, yes...but not Phoenix...

01-28-2012, 04:41 AM	#72 (permalink)
Dolly Resident Sweetie Sweeter than sweets Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 155 My Mood: Client: Firestorm, Cool VL viewer	Henri has ported the renderer from LL's v2.6 viewer into Cool VL, which I believe was long before LL began work on the shining fixes, (and thus the OpenGL compatibility issues you explained so well above).

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