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Old 03-09-2011, 02:17 PM   #1 (permalink)
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RLV with Limits.. Third party viewer concept

I'm a reluctant holdout to RLV.

I'd like to use it at this point, because a lot of things don't even work if you're not using RLV... but I'm reluctant, because being a shop owner, there are a couple of restrictions I wish that I could disable. IM blocking, inventory blocking, notecards, etc.

So many products out there go into "sleeper mode" when they don't detect RLV. So if you're not using RLV when you lock it, and then one day opt to log in using RLV, surprise, you're stuck with whatever restrictions the creator saw fit to inflict on you. And in most cases, once locked, you don't have any options to access the RLV menus.

I'd like a Viewer-2 based build of RLV to exist, with no other features, no special plugins.. just the straight viewer plus RLV.. but I'd like to have a preference panel with checkmarks for each type of restriction, that lets me choose which restrictions are acceptable to me.

I don't have the knowledge to make this happen, but I'd definitely like to see such a thing come into existence. I think that it could be a big hit.

Last edited by Winter Ventura; 03-12-2011 at 07:36 AM.
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Old 03-12-2011, 06:27 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Oh well...it could certainly be done. And it would not be too much work to exclude for instance the communication blocking features.

The question is rather who would spend the time to do so. I haven't touched viewer 2.x at all yet and I do not have any plans to do so. But others did, perhaps Lance would be someone who has an ear for this, which I think is a good idea
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:23 AM   #3 (permalink)
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"I'd like a Viewer-2 based build of RLV to exist."

Am I missing something? Marine is on version 2.4.
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:29 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Brianna Ort View Post
"I'd like a Viewer-2 based build of RLV to exist."

Am I missing something? Marine is on version 2.4.
Yes, you missed the end of that statement. That should have been a comma.

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Originally Posted by Winter Ventura View Post
but I'd like to have a preference panel with checkmarks for each type of restriction, that lets me choose which restrictions are acceptable to me.

Last edited by Winter Ventura; 03-12-2011 at 07:37 AM.
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Old 03-12-2011, 07:37 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Sorry. I responded to a statement that ended with a period.
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Old 03-12-2011, 10:14 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Winter, if you are concerned about objects -- as opposed to attachments -- controlling your viewer when you don't want them to, all decent RLV relays have an easily accessible safeword option, which lets you free yourself in very short order. I'd go nuts trying to debug stuff I make if that wasn't there!
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:27 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Winter, if you are concerned about objects -- as opposed to attachments -- controlling your viewer when you don't want them to, all decent RLV relays have an easily accessible safeword option, which lets you free yourself in very short order. I'd go nuts trying to debug stuff I make if that wasn't there!
Yeah.. we're talking about this, and the idea of setting me as main owner on all my attachments that allow it. Basically trying to stop the lions before they get to the gate. I just wish I could brick up a few of the more important gates.

"Winter Ventura is prevented from reading your IMs at this time" is never going to be an acceptable response for me, to a customer seeking help with one of my products. Unfortunately, not using RLV at all has been leaving me on the outside looking in, and I'm sick of it. We'll work around it, and sabotaging a relay is one of several ideas we have going, including making drop-in scripts that periodically remove IM restrictions from various attachments.. making a hud that tracks my current restrictions, etc etc.

It just seems like it would be a lot simpler to just disable those restrictions at the viewer level.
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Old 03-13-2011, 10:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Has Kitty gotten back into a capacity to dev Catznip some more? She sort of disappeared a bit since December. She was really taking the project in an excellent direction. (._.)
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Old 03-13-2011, 12:34 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 03-13-2011, 05:40 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Frankly speaking, I think this is an awesome idea. I would like to play with RLV myself, but do not want to find myself locked down, unable to IM, use notecards, etc.

But I also always had another idea, that would allow you to lock folders. As in, I could attach lock an entire folder and subfolders so that things like hair, AO, and tails could not be removed by RLV; as a folder, locking anything I want down would be easy.

But y'know, I suppose we're a minority to not want the "full" RLV experience.


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Old 03-13-2011, 08:12 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winter Ventura View Post
Yeah.. we're talking about this, and the idea of setting me as main owner on all my attachments that allow it. Basically trying to stop the lions before they get to the gate. I just wish I could brick up a few of the more important gates.

"Winter Ventura is prevented from reading your IMs at this time" is never going to be an acceptable response for me, to a customer seeking help with one of my products. Unfortunately, not using RLV at all has been leaving me on the outside looking in, and I'm sick of it. We'll work around it, and sabotaging a relay is one of several ideas we have going, including making drop-in scripts that periodically remove IM restrictions from various attachments.. making a hud that tracks my current restrictions, etc etc.

It just seems like it would be a lot simpler to just disable those restrictions at the viewer level.
If I'm testing anything that's likely to keep me incommunicado or otherwise unavailable to help customers for any length of time, I use an alt, of course. So do most people I know who create RLV toys. In practice, particularly if you use an alt, I really don't think it's a big issue.

If you're using RLVa (not Marine's viewer, Cool VL or Dolphin) then you can track your current restrictions from the RLVa menu (typically on viewer's Advanced menu). Otherwise it's not a big deal to call @getstatusall, of course.

And I would strongly advise testing everything with both RLV and RLVa because they do a few things differently. In particular, there are a couple of situations in which RLVa silently ignores things that aren't actually errors but can't possibly be what anyone intends to happen, if you see what I mean, while RLV interprets the insane instructions literally, with spectacular results. I found this out the hard way the other day, just before we were going to release the product. Thank God we caught it in time, is all I can say.
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:19 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Frankly speaking, I think this is an awesome idea. I would like to play with RLV myself, but do not want to find myself locked down, unable to IM, use notecards, etc.

But I also always had another idea, that would allow you to lock folders. As in, I could attach lock an entire folder and subfolders so that things like hair, AO, and tails could not be removed by RLV; as a folder, locking anything I want down would be easy.

But y'know, I suppose we're a minority to not want the "full" RLV experience.


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I've not played with it yet, but I think you can now do this with the latest versions of RLV. Take a look at
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and associated commands at LSL Protocol/RestrainedLoveAPI - Second Life Wiki
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:42 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Old 03-13-2011, 08:53 PM   #14 (permalink)
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just finished reading over it. Oh my, that is fantastic! Thanks for pointing that out to me. anecdotally, I'm reminded of a time when my friends and I went to play with the goodies at Toy's Toys. My RL boyfriend trapped me to something and had it strip me. In a fur avatar, it had the comical result of removing most of my bodily attachments, leaving me a hideously deformed shape underneath. I guess that can now be tucked away as a fond memory rather than a looming danger. :3

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Old 03-13-2011, 09:04 PM   #15 (permalink)
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the free think kink relay has a "locker" menu that lets you set attach points and body parts to not change when things strip you.

so you can set your shape, skin, hair (or whatever) to not come off when someone hits "strip all"

this "locker" function works even when the relay is turned off, so it's pretty handy.

I guess this doesn't address winter's op, but derails happen...
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Old 03-14-2011, 02:46 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Agreed.
I've dabbled a little with RLV, and I find it a bit of a turnoff, really.
I mean, what's the meaning of my submission if I'm forced to give it to whoever owns me?
It's all about the mental bit and the choice for me; I once had a Dom who was considering collaring me lock me into an awful belly dance pose that I had mentioned to him earlier that I HATED, just to prove he controlled me.
I killed it(RLV) with fire after that.


That said, I think that's a fabulous idea, Winter.
I don't take well to the idea of being unable to receive IMs and NCs while "locked" and I don't particularly enjoy the idea of logging in "locked" and being unable to change it.
Being able to check and uncheck what I don't wish to have done to me would make me far more willing to consider trying to use RLV again.
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Old 03-14-2011, 03:42 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brianna Ort View Post
"I'd like a Viewer-2 based build of RLV to exist."

Am I missing something? Marine is on version 2.4.
I use Catznip which is the V2 RLVa support (thats why i use it)
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Old 03-20-2011, 02:11 PM   #18 (permalink)
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RLV is about Bondage, not Submission

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Agreed.
I've dabbled a little with RLV, and I find it a bit of a turnoff, really.
I mean, what's the meaning of my submission if I'm forced to give it to whoever owns me?
It's all about the mental bit and the choice for me; I once had a Dom who was considering collaring me lock me into an awful belly dance pose that I had mentioned to him earlier that I HATED, just to prove he controlled me.
I killed it(RLV) with fire after that.
To quote a good friend of mine, RLV is all about Bondage, and not at all about Submission. Now, I love both, I love giving my submission to my Mistress freely, and when she says "Stay", then I'll stay until she says otherwise.

At the same time though, I love the lack of control that RLV provides when I am chained up to a post somewhere and my collar is locked so I cannot remove it.... purrr... but it's Bondage, not Submission. I'm being forced, by RLV, and by the chain attaching my collar to the post, to remain there.

Two very different things in my opinion, and equally valid so long as the distinction between them remains clear.

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Old 03-20-2011, 02:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Yeah.. we're talking about this, and the idea of setting me as main owner on all my attachments that allow it. Basically trying to stop the lions before they get to the gate. I just wish I could brick up a few of the more important gates.
I'm not quite getting this. That sort of thing happens once in a blue moon. It also seems to me to be an excellent indicator of whom you can trust. What I mean is, if you state in your profile to not turn off IM's or inventory, and someone does, then it's highly likely that they would ignore other limits.

If you're encountering a large number of people that ignore stated limits, then frankly you're hanging out in the wrong place imo.

The OC relay embedded in their collar scripts allows for safewording to release you from restrictions you don't want. It also allows you to blacklist (and whitelist) avatars.

If you're at all considering being collared by someone, you should already have communicated that limit and trust that they won't inflict it on you.

If you trust the person enough to allow them access, you should also trust they won't fuck around with a limit you have underscored with a 'do not cross'.
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Old 03-20-2011, 03:10 PM   #20 (permalink)
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It's all about the mental bit and the choice for me; I once had a Dom who was considering collaring me lock me into an awful belly dance pose that I had mentioned to him earlier that I HATED, just to prove he controlled me.
A good Dom (or Domme) doesn't have to resort to that sort of crude control. It's like using a sledgehammer to sculpt. RLV is a mutually accepted metagaming that should enhance D/s. Whatever restrictions are imposed, should be mutually fun.

For example, stripping someone slowly with emotes and teasing along the way is a great deal of fun for a lot of people. Walking through a 'strip wall' and having everything removed automagically is boring and annoying as hell.
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:33 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Oh yes please, I really wish there were either a more customizable RLV/RLVa, or a very limited one without many of the features in the current one.

I'm a subbe in both RL and SL.
In SL I'm in a love affair with a wonderful woman - still exciting and satisfying after 2 years, and we have a long session at least once per week.. But she uses RLV far too much for my taste. For example, she TPs me automatically instead of sending me a TP which I would have to click on, and she sits me on things instead of asking me to click to sit on it myself (which would provide me with a Stand Up button).

I dislike that because it tends to make a sub passive and lazy, if she is treated like a doll. Using RLV less would provide the sub with more opportunities to obey actively, and actually express her submission and consent for example by not clicking the Stand Up button until asked to.

It's not only bad Dommes who overuse RLV. My current lover is wonderful in many ways, sensitive, aware, a good communicator - I'd need several pages to do justice to her good qualities. There's just something about RLV which tempts her to over-use it.

I don't want to complain about every small incident, such as her TPing me automatically. It's only a very minor thing, and not worth interrupting the flow of our interaction with a "time out" or OOC kind of conversation each time it happens, so I usually let it go without comment. Each incident is so minor I couldn't even call it an annoyance, and I get over it in two seconds. What concerns me is the cumulative effect of being treated like a passive object in so many minor ways.

So (not wanting to interrupt our hot times with petty complaints) instead of mentioning it in particular incidents during a session, I try discussing it more generally with her during our "pillow talk" times. She kinda gets what I mean, and is affected for a while, but then gradually falls back into the habit of steering my av for me.

Anybody can give RLV control to a dom and then fall asleep at the keyboard. Being passively submissive is no gift - a lump of wood can be passive. It takes a heart and good intentions to be actively submissive and cooperative. So I prefer being asked to dress or undress, etc.

Of course there are exceptions, and variety is good. For example I really like Roxy's description above, of being undressed in a sexy way instead of just abruptly stripped. Similarly it's nice to be led on a leash - sometimes - but not all the time, or again the sub becomes lazy and not actively involved. Following my lover without a leash takes more concentration and motivation and expresses loyalty, by staying close to her when we are out together.

To put it another way: I don't want to be just a passenger. I'd rather it was more like she is the captain and I am the crew.
Otherwise it can seem like she is serving me, by doing all the work while I relax and let her entertain me.

Last edited by Innocent; 03-20-2011 at 09:09 PM.
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Old 03-21-2011, 12:47 AM   #22 (permalink)
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In SL I'm in a love affair with a wonderful woman - still exciting and satisfying after 2 years, and we have a long session at least once per week.. But she uses RLV far too much for my taste. For example, she TPs me automatically instead of sending me a TP which I would have to click on, and she sits me on things instead of asking me to click to sit on it myself (which would provide me with a Stand Up button).

I dislike that because it tends to make a sub passive and lazy, if she is treated like a doll. Using RLV less would provide the sub with more opportunities to obey actively, and actually express her submission and consent for example by not clicking the Stand Up button until asked to.

It's not only bad Dommes who overuse RLV. My current lover is wonderful in many ways, sensitive, aware, a good communicator - I'd need several pages to do justice to her good qualities. There's just something about RLV which tempts her to over-use it.

I don't want to complain about every small incident, such as her TPing me automatically. It's only a very minor thing, and not worth interrupting the flow of our interaction with a "time out" or OOC kind of conversation each time it happens, so I usually let it go without comment. Each incident is so minor I couldn't even call it an annoyance, and I get over it in two seconds. What concerns me is the cumulative effect of being treated like a passive object in so many minor ways.

So (not wanting to interrupt our hot times with petty complaints) instead of mentioning it in particular incidents during a session, I try discussing it more generally with her during our "pillow talk" times. She kinda gets what I mean, and is affected for a while, but then gradually falls back into the habit of steering my av for me.
If I might make an observation and a suggestion.. Some habits are hard to break, even for a Dominant. Now sometimes the point of a scene is to 'take over fully' such as locking the sub onto say an exam table and the subs task is to concentrate on what's happening to them.

Additionally, force TP works in ways a TP lure cannot. Surprise for instance. When I force TP my girl, she doesn't know where she'll end up. Some places she would know what to expect were she able to see the TP destination.

There are few ways in SL to have that.. 'what's going to happen next?' feeling you can get with various RL BDSM scenes. Force TP (and RLV in general) can do that in a small way.

But if it's a case lounging around the house or just hanging out somewhere and not a part of an active scene, my suggestion would be a gentle reminder in IM to allow you to participate. Such as "Mistress (or however you address her) you're steering me again. Please allow me to display my devotion." Something like that, where you're asking her permission in a discrete way.

As far as the force TP goes.. well, I'm of two minds on that. When I was collared, I usually had time to say 'Mistress is on..' before I was force TP'd to her. I liked it. There aren't a lot of ways a Dom/me can display the same devotion to a sub that the sub has for their Dominant. Pulling you to them is one of those ways.

I have force TP enabled for my sub, but I'll make sure she's ready before I use it. She used to work at a club, and I would never have force TP'd her while she was working. But I think we both like that I can pull her to me whenever I wish.

As I said before, RLV should enhance the D/s relationship. My own primary use of RLV is to access my sub's RLV folder so i can choose whatever toy to tease her with.
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Old 03-21-2011, 02:56 PM   #23 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=Imnotgoing Sideways;1188636]Has Kitty gotten back into a capacity to dev Catznip some more?QUOTE]

I know Kitty is still active on contributing to Viewer 2 and Firestorm, but do not know what her plans are for Catznip.
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