Innocent

When Ascent stopped development, Siana Gearz picked up the ball and has continued developing it, now called Singularity. She has already added some things which weren't in the final Ascent, including RLVa.

Seems to me, this new viewer deserves a thread of its own. I'd be very grateful for feedback from actual users, regarding speed, stability, features, etc.

This thread could also be used for peer support among users, to save bothering the developer with questions about how to use it and find stuff in it's menus and dialogs.

Innocent

To get started, I guess Chalice Yao won't mind me pasting the section about Singularity from her excellent thread about all the non-naughty TPVs: Chalice's list of SL clients

Boy Lane

Astra viewer: anyone heard of it?

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Ajax Manatiso

Ascent recently became my default viewer as some of the others -- Phoenix, Inprudence, etc -- were crashy when working with builds/scripts. Looks like I will switch to Singularity -- however it says on their website they are thinking of going over to 2.x GUI -- when that happens I will drop it like a rock.

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Inhandra

You're gonna be a sad panda when V1s are completely disabled from logging into the main grid.

Siana Gearz

I'm the main developer of Singularity Viewer. We will be upgrading to V2 technology "under the hood", hoping to support more new features, in fact we're working on it now! However the UI will stay V1-style, for as long as we can keep it. Crucial V1 features and UI elements will only be abandoned if we are forced to do that by Lindens changing Second Life protocol. And worry less, enjoy more! Even when official 1.23 is dropped and barred from login, it doesn't mean this affects us, as long we stay compatible with the required feature set, which should very well be doable, if i have time enough to.

Oh and never mind my fork of Astra, forget it, it's for private OpenSim/AuroraSim installation only, It's a special purpose version of Imprudence. Singularity on the other hand is pretty unique and sufficiently different technically from any other viewer, though certainly sharing common heritage with many of them.

And thanks to Neurocam for pointing out this thread, wouldn't have known otherwise. Perhaps if someone decides to discuss Singularity Viewer, anywhere, not just here, they could... contact me and tell me about it instead of doing it behind my back? Not a requirement by any means but a hope for decency.

I'm totally curious myself how Singularity Viewer is perceived and how it works for everyone or anyone at all, cause i know SOME people use it (i don't collect usage data myself, but i do receive some from Lindens), but at most a tiny fraction of those ever said anything at all about their experience! I don't know whether it's good or bad - so good they don't have much to complain about, or so bad they're afraid to offend me, i don't know. While i certainly won't be able to make it perfect for everyone for the finiteness of my time, every opinion, every gripe, and every criticism counts, is taken into consideration, and is most welcome!

Inhandra

I'm willing to be honest with you. I may be a V2-TPV user myself, but I have plenty of friends using V1s. And, until Singularity appears on the TPV list, I'm very hesitant to recommend it. Not because anything not on the list is bad, but because I know nothing about you, and thus, have nothing to base the client's "security risk" upon. Actually appearing there would do much to spread your usage, I believe, and I know it would let me recommend it with a clear conscious.

DanielRavenNest

It's not behind your back if its posted on the #1 google search result for "second life forum", in the section about alternate clients, and you are a registered member of that forum. Not to mention Innocent linked to your website and download location a few posts back.

Siana Gearz

Inhandra, thanks, i agree with you, however i would go further and say that appearing on TPVD is not any kind of guarantee for being trustworthy - personal trust into the person producing the binaries is involved, though to be fair i don't see any reason to distrust my immediate rivals among Linden viewer based TPVD listed clients.

There is probably pretty much nothing i would be willing do to reinforce that trust - e.g. i am not a well known merchant whose business depends on good name, i'm not willing to disclose my real life credentials to Residents - though the Lab certainly has them. Perhaps i shouldn't be justifying myself too hard though, except the work i end up doing on the viewer - and it certainly is for most of you an unimaginable lot of work, on the order of magnitude of 15-20h/week, all the way since end of October - most of it isn't for my own sake, but user requests, with the bulk of users being my acquaintances and friends.

I still doubt, whether TPVD listing will be a good thing. Ok, we shall receive better usage and crash data. On the other hand, you will understand that some users are quite a bit more trouble than they are worth, would make unreasonable demands which they strongly feel should take priority over my own needs or those of others, and will not be willing at all to assist me in solving their problems. I'm really scared of the moment i'll start having to deal with those, and how much of my time and health they might yet consume.

P.S. I don't do forums. These Forum people are always so nasty, don't know why, what i did to them to make them so angry. See? They somehow assume the world revolves around their forum, and every person registered knows their way around them and reads them. And/or googles their own name and/or name of their project every day. Ungh. I don't even collect referrals from my page - i'm really not some kind of blogger attention whore or so, i'm just a kitty who programs -.-

Innocent

Hi Seana, I apologize for not letting you know I had started this thread. It wasn't intended to be like "behind your back". It looks like it may be a good choice for a viewer, with lots of neat features, and I thought SLU members would want to be aware of it, so it deserves its own thread here.

Thank you for participating in the thread and letting us know more about Singularity.

DanielRavenNest

You were nasty first. Saying we did stuff "behind your back" has connotations of us being evil gossip-mongers who are not willing to talk to you directly. We are, very much willing to chat, and this is a very public location. If you prefer other channels of communication, that's fine, but this section of SLU exists for discussion of alternate viewers, so it should be no surprise that your viewer would pop up here. Now here's a flower, and let's stop calling each other names, OK?

And look: small animals!

Joshua Nightshade

Are you fucking joking?

Siana Gearz

Joshua Nightshade: After a few hours of looking for it i found the "watch this thread" option. Not kidding. Not kidding at all. -.-

DanielRavenNest: oh here or anywhere else is fine, as long as i can keep peeking.

Inhandra

I did specifically mention that I do share the view that things not on the TPVD aren't inherently bad. However, when there's 0 other cards on the table to judge a client, being TPVD listed helps earn at least some trust.

If the client becomes big enough, you'll have loud users regardless of being TPVD listed.

Joshua Nightshade

Yeah, that wasn't what I was talking about. You throwing a tantrum because someone made a thread discussing your viewer was what I was talking about.

Siana Gearz

Then perhaps you picked the wrong quote? Well we have had a bit of an initial disagreement with a couple of participants which i think we got settled by now. Why you need to butt in is a bit beyond me, and i feel arguing with you is futile, so i won't, and will just leave it as a statement that i disagree with you.

It's not about starting a thread which is nice per se, it's about not inviting me in. Cause as you see, already at the 4th post the thread started emitting proper rumors coming about from someone misreading some statement of mine.

Opinions and feedback are fine, and i'd sure like to hear MORE of them, rumors are not, not at all.

No point concentrating on any of those circumstantial issues. Go on everyone, so far i only got one half the opinion from a person who (for valid reason) is too hesitant to get a more complete one. This can't be it, there have to be some... uhm 80ish people using Singularity actively and around 200 who tried it, according to stats from Linden Lab and from GitHub file host. Download statistics spiked after Miss Chalice first put the viewer on her list here, so there MUST be some people who tried it who got to know it from SLU. Those please step forward please if you like

Boy Lane

@Siana
People can sometimes look nasty, especially in forums. That doesn't necessarily mean they really are, it's perhaps a bit of common sense and healthy hesitation in the beginning before we know each other better. But if you break the ice which does not take too long this will turn upside down. Even with Josh

One thing I've seen here and very much appreciate, one does not always have to nod and agree to everything like in the flogs. We can agree to disagree and still have some pie or bacon straight afterwards .

Joshua Nightshade

You posted in a public thread, there is no "butting in." It's not a private club. If you wanted to make a private response to someone, there's a tool up there at the top which does so. You didn't, you posted in public -- an incredibly nasty post in public, I'll add -- so anyone who wishes to do so can participate.

This thread is on the first page of google results for "Singularity Viewer" in which you've used three posts to insult four different people. I highly suggest you re-evaluate how you want to appear towards anyone googling around for information about your viewer in the case that this nasty persona isn't the one you want associated with the project. If you'd rather discuss the viewer, discuss the viewer. If you want to keep being insulting towards me and attempting to justify it as "waaah, this isn't about you," I can give tit for tat. I'm not the person with a viewer project, though.

No one is obligated to "invite" you to a discussion when you produce a tool that you've released publicly. That's absurd. Nor is there any talking about you behind your back when said discussion takes place on the largest third party Second Life forum.

Innocent

Siana, unfortunately Joshua has no control over his argumentative nature, he must have the last word.
If you want the thread to be about Singularity, it's best to not answer him and just drop it, or there will be more pages of pointless petty bickering, like so many other threads here.

Boy Lane

Bullshit, Siana, stay here.

Josh can be an asshole but he is straight and direct in what he says. As many others here. And that's what makes that place worthwhile to stay.

Joshua Nightshade

When someone's behaving like an entitled twit and insulting people left and right in their first contribution to the forum? No, I won't shut up about that.

Especially when someone is releasing a product and that insulting nastiness is their customer service. It's highly relevant for anyone interested in using this viewer to see how such a person behaves publicly, least of which when a user bothers to submit a bug report or suggestion.

Also, hugs and kisses to you too.

And a big lol to "Oh Joshua is an argumentative meany and if you don't ignore him he'll destroy this thread like everything else on SLU!" Way to take your own advice, huh.

Free Xue

Just send a PM with a snap of your penis to Josh, and you'll be instant friends.

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Joshua Nightshade

I'm not so easy.









Unless it's like 10 inches.

Free Xue

Zoom in.

Siana Gearz

Josh, do i really have to have any kind of respect towards you. Like, OMG i don't have an accomplishment of 39609 public posts shitting on someone's head YET, i must be SOOOO inferior to you!

I'm not selling any product here, i'm offering the viewer in the hope it will be useful for someone. I do engage into friendly dialogue with users - actual users, not people saying they would use it if... something, whatever. Simple fact of life: i won't be able to please everyone whatever i do. That's what Open Source is for, that's why EVERYONE who has a sufficient level of skill can release their own viewer, and i challenge everyone who has any disagreement with me, be it of technical, emotional (distrust, dislike?), or any other kind, to fork my viewer, give it a new name, and provide customer support of your own.

Heck, i'll even help you set up, re-brand, and get the project going, i promise! Only requirements i place on this offer, the person must be able to read manuals and be generally literate, must know how to operate the compiler, must comply with Linden TOS and relevant license agreements, and must credit Singularity Viewer as a project his has been based upon and provide a truthful description of differences or added value compared to my project on his project webpage and/or project documentation, and must allow me to quote any public or private statements they have issued to me or about my viewer. Sounds reasonable?

In other news, according to Tankmaster's statement in #phoenixviewer-dev (public irc channel), referring to Oz Linden, Singularity Viewer has been approved for upcoming inclusion onto TPVD, and shall appear there simultaneously with Firestorm.