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Old 03-08-2011, 08:00 PM   #51 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siana Gearz View Post
Now listed on TPVD. We're in the very basement - among clients for which no (sufficient) crash data is available. I welcome everyone to try their best to crash Singularity, such that we acquire enough crash data to move to the top list!
You are assuming they require a certain number of crashes before you get into the top list. That may be true, but if so it's silly of them.

A better requirement to have enough data to be statistically significant would be the number of logins with a particular viewer. If there have been very few crashes for a large number of logins, it would get a good rating for not crashing much.
Trying to get into the top list by people forcing Singularity to crash would result in a poor rating for stability.

Anyway, I have no idea how LL decide when to move a viewer into the top list - just saying I hope its only based on a number of logins, not a number of crashes.

Edit added: I wonder if it's affected by whether users check the option to send crash data. Can LL's software be aware that a viewer has crashed (rather than a normal Quit) even if it doesn't actually send crash data?

Last edited by Innocent; 03-08-2011 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 03-08-2011, 10:51 PM   #52 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Innocent View Post
You are assuming they require a certain number of crashes before you get into the top list. That may be true, but if so it's silly of them.
Actually, NO!!!! i was pretty much KIDDING. the viewer will be on the top list as soon as its weekly total usage reaches value at which, by experience, the numbers are stable. Oz told me a specific figure, but i already forgot. But really, "go ahead, try to crash" is a more effective slogan than "we need more usage, but please don't crash, you have to make me look good".

Quote:
Edit added: I wonder if it's affected by whether users check the option to send crash data. Can LL's software be aware that a viewer has crashed (rather than a normal Quit) even if it doesn't actually send crash data?
Even if you don't send crash data (bunch of logs essentially) viewer will tell the login server, whether it crashed last time or not. This data can be correlated to total abnormal session terminations per viewer, as determined by simulators - those include both Internet connection breakdown without viewer crash, and viewer crash scenarios. Expected prevalence of connection breakdowns is well known. So if a viewer would cheat at reporting crashes, this would eventually become evident, and on the other hand, if it suppresses crash flag totally, you could still make a crash rate estimate from session termination rate.
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Old 03-09-2011, 12:18 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Seriously though all joking aside, this is the first tpv I will use. It feels like viewer two which makes me happy. It also is more stable on my machine than kirstens (which saddens me since their viewer is amazing as well). Great job, my advice is don't try to be like ascent or their devs. You have already done far better. I have gotten your source to compile with vs 2005 myself I will try to use 2008 later tonight if I get time. I may fork and post to git if I get some time off work during spring break next week. This is great work, keep it up and remember to take time off to not get burnt out on it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:33 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Thanks a lot Nebula! <3

As to burning out, uhm... Well i am taking a semi-break right now, sort of for the first time in these 5 months Singularity has been in development, and Shyotl does some totally amazing magic, while i'm playing the Twisted hunt. And only doing an hour a day or so of viewer work. Apropos burnout, well, Singularity so far has had development cost of almost 20 000 EUR at my proper rate. If someone would donate that much, or even just a decent fraction of that, i'm fairly certain any kind of burnout would instantly cure. I do tend to think "why am i doing this, giving people something for free, which they use every day but take for granted. i'm totally in the wrong business - i should be ripping people off with something easy like Bloodlines or RedZone. pity i'm not evil enough or so -.-" Then again, if such a donation would happen, i'd feel a bit guilty because there are other viewer teams out there, and i depend on their work to an extent to make mine, and they don't get anything either.
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Old 03-09-2011, 01:37 PM   #55 (permalink)
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I find Singularity to be very stable and fast on my machine. I have issues with viewers randomly crashing simply..Because, and Singularity doesn't do this.
It also loads sculpties, textures, buildings...EVERYTHING super fast, which makes it easier for me to get around
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Old 03-09-2011, 02:07 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Siana,

I've been using your viewer, and I like it very much. One thing, though, that bugs me a bit is that it's the only TPV I've tried that doesn't "stick" on my second monitor when I reload the program subsequently. In Imprudence, Kirsten's Viewer, Phoenix, the SL Viewers, etc., I can load the viewer, move it to my second monitor, full screen it, and then, from that point on, it'll appear on that second monitor. With Singularity, it always, without exception, only loads on Monitor 1.

Other than that, I will continue to use your viewer for awhile.

Which brings me to what would make me stop using it.

Re SLU threads/people, I was taken aback by your "behind your back" comment. It sounded hostile . . . and strikingly unusual. I found myself wondering why anyone should think that any thread on any forum anywhere that talks about a mere product of theirs would/should expect to be informed about such a discussion before or as it's posted. The mere fact you were told by anyone was a nice courtesy on their part; but to start such a thread, no one should have to request permission.

And I wondered what kind of person we might be dealing with . . . and what product support from such a person would be like if that person has a hostile, contentious nature.

I think, that, in his own way, was what Josh was trying to get across to you. I don't endorse his style in doing this; but the point he was trying to get across to you, I do. How you come across to people will impact how your received here (no one likes to be slammed or called to task for something, especially when they're not guilty). And how you come across to others will impact how your product is perceived. Take a lesson from the Emerald debacle.

That said, I think you'll find most of us here supportive of a good person with a good product. Be that person and you'll do fine here.
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Old 03-09-2011, 05:04 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Rema, thanks for bug report, i don't run multiple monitors nor do i run Windows for development, but i have asked around nicely and perhaps we can get someone to resolve that. I'd like you to confirm that you mean proper full screen mode and not merely a maximized window, and that you are running Windows - i assume if you were on OS X or Linux, you wouldn't forget to mention that. Also would be nice if someone could say whether the problem reproduces on OS X and what the behaviour of other viewers on OS X is.
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Old 03-11-2011, 12:23 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rema Quandry View Post
Siana,

I've been using your viewer, and I like it very much. One thing, though, that bugs me a bit is that it's the only TPV I've tried that doesn't "stick" on my second monitor when I reload the program subsequently. In Imprudence, Kirsten's Viewer, Phoenix, the SL Viewers, etc., I can load the viewer, move it to my second monitor, full screen it, and then, from that point on, it'll appear on that second monitor. With Singularity, it always, without exception, only loads on Monitor 1.
If you're using maximized mode (opposed to full screen) try opening singularity, switching it to normal non-maximized window mode, dragging it over to your desired monitor, and then closing it. That will force the client to save the window coordinates. After that, open it again. It should now pop up on the same monitor you closed it on. Now maximize it on that monitor, use the client if you want to, and close it again.

After this it should remember the monitor and properly open maximized on it.

I'll be fixing this issue in next release most likely. If this process works on mac and linux as well then it'd be rather trivial to fix.
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Old 03-14-2011, 06:08 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Thanks to everyone giving a shot at crashing Singularity! Unfortunately, the usage numbers aren't high enough to be on the top list - too low by just 10%! So i received crash numbers which are to be treated as preliminary - however they are quite promising, putting us just a notch worse than Linden Lab official viewer releases. Make up your own mind as to how it plays out in comparison with other TPVs, i'm not at liberty to say much more until we get more usage and reach the top half of the TPVD, at which point i won't have to say anything at all as the listing will speak for itself.

However i'm not fully satisfied yet and never will be, as long as there are crashes which appear during normal use.
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Old 03-14-2011, 07:55 PM   #60 (permalink)
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I have found plenty of ways to easily crash your viewer I can show you inworld if wanted Siana
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Old 03-16-2011, 04:59 PM   #61 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siana Gearz View Post
Rema, thanks for bug report, i don't run multiple monitors nor do i run Windows for development, but i have asked around nicely and perhaps we can get someone to resolve that. I'd like you to confirm that you mean proper full screen mode and not merely a maximized window, and that you are running Windows - i assume if you were on OS X or Linux, you wouldn't forget to mention that. Also would be nice if someone could say whether the problem reproduces on OS X and what the behaviour of other viewers on OS X is.
I'm running the viewer under Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit. And the problem was with a maximized window.

As it turns out, I just upgraded my nVidia driver today . . . and magically the problem disappears. I'm now able to shut down the viewer, re-open it, and it now remembers where it's supposed to be maximized on my second monitor.

So, for some reason, the original problem--as I reported it--seems to be the result of an interaction between a non-current nVidia driver and your viewer.
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Old 03-17-2011, 09:41 PM   #62 (permalink)
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The viewer is amazing with my new graphics card, others had some issues :<
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:34 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Wow, I haven't used a viewer 1 in a long while, and decided to try this, and it's going so super speedy!
..Though I do miss my sidebar...
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:22 AM   #64 (permalink)
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I am so glad that I tried Singularity. I really liked Ascent, but the constant "crashing" and unsteady movement was annoying to say the least. With Singularity, the SL experience is perfect.

Thank you very much Siana for making this this viewer possible. I love it.


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Old 03-24-2011, 02:31 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Downloaded this last week and got the side-by-side configuration problem but downloading vcredist_x86.exev fixed it - Download details: Microsoft Visual C++ 2005 Service Pack 1 Redistributable Package ATL Security Update (In Vista, Event Viewer > Custom Views > Summary page events > side-by-side >
Activation context generation failed for "C:\Program Files\SingularityViewer\Singularity.exe". Dependent Assembly Microsoft.VC80.CRT,processorArchitecture="x86",pub licKeyToken="1fc8b3b9a1e18e3b",type="win32",versio n="8.0.50727.4053" could not be found. Please use sxstrace.exe for detailed diagnosis.)


Am VERY impressed with the fast rezzing, the UI and the features. Have crashed a bit but I'm presuming that's Inworldz problems, not a Singularity issue.

If it had the media patch I'd definitely be using it for SL too.

Last edited by Gerrard Winstanley; 03-24-2011 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:30 PM   #66 (permalink)
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I've been using it in IW. some issues with group chat, a couple of odd crashes but I like it very much.
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Old 03-24-2011, 06:51 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Frankie Cascarino View Post
I am so glad that I tried Singularity. I really liked Ascent, but the constant "crashing" and unsteady movement was annoying to say the least. With Singularity, the SL experience is perfect.

Thank you very much Siana for making this this viewer possible. I love it.


Perhaps I spoke too soon. I've crashed at least seven times today.
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:02 AM   #68 (permalink)
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Perhaps I spoke too soon. I've crashed at least seven times today.
I've had some crashes too, though never as many as seven times in a day, more like one or two per week.

I find it very hard to be objective about crash rates. It seems I've had more crashes per week than I used to have with Imprudence, but maybe that has nothing to do with the choice of viewer. For example it may be caused by a new server version LL is trying on some sims, and would have increased as much if I had stayed with Imprudence. Or it could be because I've been spending more time away from home recently, visiting busy sims such as popular shops (none of my crashes have been while I was at home, building or making love).

I see Singularity is now in the upper list of the TPV directory, which is ordered by crash rates.
Third Party Viewer Directory - Second Life Wiki
Top of the list (best listed first) are the SL viewers, then Imprudence, Singularity, Phoenix, Emergence, Firestorm, Kirstens, Restrained Love, Ascent. There are no actual numbers given for crash rates, just an order, so we can't see if Imprudence is marginally more stable or significantly better.
Anyway, they say "Crash rate varies considerably depending on what platform (hardware and operating system) you are using, and on what you do in Second Life. You may find that your individual experience differs from this ordering."

Certainly I like Singularity's speed and features, better than any other viewers I've used.
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Old 03-25-2011, 06:29 AM   #69 (permalink)
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The much faster rezzing against a few more crashes (if that is Singularity's problem, I'm not sure) is a decent trade off for me.


But having a problem with the new Viewer 2 Outfit-links function.

It makes folders for new outfits, and puts them in 'My Outfits' - but there's nothing in them.

First viewer I've tried with this feature. Have I missed something in settings?
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Old 03-25-2011, 01:57 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Gerrard, we have a number of proper crash situations in our code which manifest themselves a few orders of magnitude more commonly on InWorldz than in Second Life, and i suspect you have been a victim to those. With some help from Zauber Paracelsus, i think we may have fixed some of them for upcoming version. I believe Imprudence is genuinely much more stable there all along.

Also, V2-compatible outfits won't work on a grid which doesn't support them. InWorldz is going to introduce outfit support soon-ish, i.e. for now this functionality is broken there and is not to be used. It will be automatically disabled in upcoming version.

As to comparison of stability on Second Life grid, Imprudence, Singularity and Phoenix (current Beta), they are close enough together to consider the bulk of the crashes to be memory contention related and thus mostly a tradeoff between texture loading performance and peak memory use. I think we have been able to tilt the balance towards less crashiness a tiny bit, but we're working on it to improve further.

What i'm more concerned with, is disconnects without crash, which happen almost as often as crashes. If someone experiences them and has noticed anything in common about how and when they happen, please share.

What i can recommend for memory contention related problems, is not setting the network bandwidth higher than pre-set value of 2 MBit/s and not setting the cache size and Texture Memory use too large - perhaps some experimentation would be helpful there.

Also excluding the viewer main process (Singularity.exe for ours) from anti-virus (but please not SLPlugin) could be helpful, as it does a lot of disk read/write, and for all of that, anti-virus will need to allocate memory to scan it. Viewer main process only deals with grid-trusted data (not true of older viewers, SL 1.23 and Imprudence 1.3, they handle untrusted data in main process), and you pretty much have little choice but to trust me on not putting anything malicious in the executable itself, because if i did, it would be something custom which wouldn't correspond to predefined matching patterns and no anti-virus would be able to detect it anyway. If you lack such trust towards the developer, you have to use a viewer from a developer you trust, e.g. Linden Lab. I don't really want to scare any of you away, but that's the truth, sorry.
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Old 03-25-2011, 05:01 PM   #71 (permalink)
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I have found though that I find it nearly impossible to get into voice chat calls.
As in they simply do not work with more than one person.
I only have this problem on Singularity. oO;
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Old 03-27-2011, 01:23 PM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Siana Gearz View Post
Gerrard, we have a number of proper crash situations in our code which manifest themselves a few orders of magnitude more commonly on InWorldz than in Second Life, and i suspect you have been a victim to those. With some help from Zauber Paracelsus, i think we may have fixed some of them for upcoming version. I believe Imprudence is genuinely much more stable there all along.
.................
have only been in Inworldz a week or so ... and have only about 6 friends ... and I can't say what viewer they're using (apart from it's not singularity).

But they do all regularly drop offline before reappearing a minute or so later.

Often, I think, it's a relog to fix some inventory, building or even location problem ... but there's a fair bit of crashing as well.

It is after all, still in Beta.
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Old 03-31-2011, 09:01 AM   #73 (permalink)
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Im not crashing more then I used to, seems about the same with all viewers, I am however crashing every time I try to TP >.< Hell, sometimes I cant even TP home, which is a damn shame since I really love Singularity.
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Old 04-03-2011, 08:59 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Cool About viewer tags

Im a new user of Singularity Viewer and till now im very happy with the performance.
but i have a question about tag's
i like to see what viewers (phoenix, viewer 2, Imprudence...) other people use, but i cant see them.... how can i see? what i have to turn on? lol
And one sugestion, i would like to see the name of the avatar on the bar that is on the top like this: "Singularity Viewer 1.5.5 (0) - Antoino Decuir".
I think that should appear the name of the avatar, so if you have connected two or three avatars, find out who is it.
And tysm for the great job
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Old 04-03-2011, 09:52 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Antoino, it is in preferences:

edit->preferences->Vanity->colors
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