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Old 09-17-2010, 02:27 PM   #1 (permalink)
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The status of LLKDU/KDU and third party viewers

Quote:
p, li { white-space: pre-wrap; }[12:25:45] Oz Linden: - Use of KDU

Linden Lab does consider use of our existing llkdu.dll in any TPV to
be a GPL license violation, whether or not you distribute it.

- We will shortly be changing our viewer builds such that KDU will not
be in a dll (it will be statically linked).

- We will no longer be distributing a dll containing KDU.

Linden Lab will cooperate with other viewers on closed-source
development of a KDU wrapper that we can share, but only with viewers
developers who can show us evidence that they have a KDU license that
allows them to distribute applications containing KDU.
So there we have it. Said a minute ago at the OS meeting in-world at Hippotropolis. No 1.* TPVs may use it. no 2.* Snowstorm based viewrs can use it, since LL will stop distributing KDU in its own DLL.

If you have a 2.* Snowstorm based TPV, you need to get a KDU license in order to use it.

EDIT:
Addition: No, having a 2.* Snowstorm based TPV and grabbing the dll from another source does not fly, as supposedly you need a KDU lience to distribute binaries that can use KDU.
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Last edited by Chalice Yao; 09-17-2010 at 02:43 PM.
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:46 PM   #2 (permalink)
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But even if you had your own KDU license, emerald kind of killed that option too as they insisted on the removal of that.
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:12 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JennL View Post
But even if you had your own KDU license, emerald kind of killed that option too as they insisted on the removal of that.
No. If you have a license, -and- a 2.* Snowstorm based TPV, you can use KDU. Emerald was a 1.* viewer, GPL+FLOSS license, not Snowstorm-based LGPL.

FYI, the license is 250 bucks for non-profit projects and a single developer having the KDU source on the team.
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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What about viewers like CoolVL and DolphinViewer that install on top of an existing LL Snowglobe 1.x install? How do they fit into this?
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:16 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahar Aabye View Post
What about viewers like CoolVL and DolphinViewer that install on top of an existing LL Snowglobe 1.x install? How do they fit into this?
They can't use it, just like any other TPV. Actually I've just shot Oz an E-Mail to clarify if 1.* and 2.*-Snowstorm-but-no-KDU-license TPVs actually need to actively disable the code that makes it possible to load KDU or not. I suspect they have to.

It really seems to be a matter of 'you cannot make binaries that can use KDU if you have no KDU license' on top of the GPL issue of 1.* viewers not being able to use it outright, license or not.
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Old 09-17-2010, 03:28 PM   #6 (permalink)
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It's really more that llkdu shouldn't have been distributed as a dynamic library in the first place, Kadaku wants applications to be self-contained when it comes to their code, so that other apps can't hook into it. I had been wondering if LL had wrangled an exception to that at some point, but this development kind of confirms that they didn't.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:04 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
On 2010-09-17 16:10, Ambrosia wrote:
Greetings, Chalice Yao here.

There was one question that I wanted to ask when you had to move on to
the next meeting today:

"Do TPV developers that currently use your 1.* and 2.* code need to
modify this code so it is actually -unable- to use KDU before
distributing their binaries to third parties, if they have no license
currently?"
Yes.

How soon Linden Lab will take action to enforce that is an open question, but we'll be reasonable about it.

No new applications for listing in the TPVD are being accepted unless they meet that requirement.
There we have it. The code of 1.* TPVs and Snowstorm-2.* TPVs without a KDU license needs modifyin' so LLKDU can't be loaded.
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Old 09-17-2010, 04:59 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Peeks in, because i just can't help myself....I freakin told ya. Chalice, that's obviously not directed at you Those to whom that smart ass remark is directed, full well know who they are lol.
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Old 09-18-2010, 04:20 AM   #9 (permalink)
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So I make a TPV based off 1.x and i buy a license for kDU and the makers of KDU are happy about this?

I know nothing about licenses so Im not trying to be cheeky.
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Old 09-18-2010, 04:45 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Just copied this from the Kakadu licensing page on their non-commercial license:
Quote:
Non-commercial:
A non-commercial licence allows you to use the SDK to build Applications for your personal use. It is applicable where the licensee receives no commercial and/or financial benefit. It does not permit you to distribute or use any Applications. This licence can only be purchased by individuals, Academic Institutions, not-for-profit organizations and libraries which do not generate revenue by using this software
The non-commercial SDK pack is priced at USD 250 and is not for commercial or corporate use. Non-commercial licences are not available for Speedpack.
The phrase 'It does not permit you to distribute or use any Applications.' looks like a bit of a killer.

I suppose they had to improve Viewer 2's performance relative to other viewers somehow.
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Old 09-18-2010, 05:14 AM   #11 (permalink)
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It is applicable where the licensee receives no commercial and/or financial benefit

isnt though right?
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Old 09-18-2010, 05:20 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Kirstens fetches me 60 fps with 700 ktris/fr and 20 fps with 1400 ktris/fr. So with 1000 ktris/fr (one million polygons per frame) it should run at 29.97 fps which is all anyone needs. This on S20(38) which does not load llkdu.dll.

However kirstens does load remote access and remote procedure call libs.
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Old 09-18-2010, 05:20 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Ummm folks can you please not write in black

it makes it impossible to read for those using the dark skin of the forum
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:24 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitomi Tiponi View Post
[SIZE=2]
The phrase 'It does not permit you to distribute or use any Applications.' looks like a bit of a killer.
There is a PDF link over on the Kadaku site for the actual noncommercial license, it does allow applications built with KDU to be distributed and used. The blurb seems to simply be badly fumbled wording.
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:45 AM   #15 (permalink)
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the very latest dolphin viewer (not even an hour old) has all KDU support taken out.
I've been measuring FPS, and comparing the quality of the output (high-res screenshots), and frankly, why is there KDU anyways.
Don't see any difference between using KDU and using openjpeg 1.3...
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Old 09-18-2010, 07:54 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I've been calling this one for quite a while, not because of the GPL but because it's pretty clear that the KDU license was being violated left and right by a lot of people.

Ascent will have KDU stripped out in its Sunday update.
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Old 09-18-2010, 09:12 AM   #17 (permalink)
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I've just been playing round with the latest Dolphin viewer (thanks, Lance) and I can't see any deterioration in speed or rezzing or anything in comparison with the earlier versions that used llkdu. It's still very fast indeed (faster than Phoenix, still, at least for me) and very stable.

It rocks!
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Old 09-18-2010, 09:33 AM   #18 (permalink)
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KDU makes a difference on my part.
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Old 09-18-2010, 09:57 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kabalyero View Post
KDU makes a difference on my part.
As I understand it, whether or not it makes a discernible difference depends on your graphics card and your CPU. Can anyone explain in simple terms what factors play a part in this (e.g. "if your graphics card is an nVidia whatever or better, you probably won't notice a difference," if that's what it is)?
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:08 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Needs KDU:

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Old 09-18-2010, 10:34 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
As I understand it, whether or not it makes a discernible difference depends on your graphics card and your CPU. Can anyone explain in simple terms what factors play a part in this (e.g. "if your graphics card is an nVidia whatever or better, you probably won't notice a difference," if that's what it is)?
Was just saying that it makes a difference on my computer and if it makes a difference then you'll probably get an idea of what kind of computer I use. I apologize if I can't afford a better one but I still enjoy Second Life with it.
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:45 AM   #22 (permalink)
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I wasn't criticising.. it just struck me it would be useful to know, in general, under what circumstances a TPV's not using kdu is likely to be an issue, is all, since it's a question that's likely to keep on arising.
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:49 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Lance Corrimal View Post
the very latest dolphin viewer (not even an hour old) has all KDU support taken out.
I've been measuring FPS, and comparing the quality of the output (high-res screenshots), and frankly, why is there KDU anyways.
Don't see any difference between using KDU and using openjpeg 1.3...
Then obviously the easiest solution(in the legal sense if you don't want to run afoul of the GPL) is to solely use and optimize openjpeg to a point where using KDU would be practically unnecessary.
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:57 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innula Zenovka View Post
I wasn't criticising.. it just struck me it would be useful to know, in general, under what circumstances a TPV's not using kdu is likely to be an issue, is all, since it's a question that's likely to keep on arising.
It's not really an issue. Who knows, I might be the only one using a computer that relies on KDU but I do notice the difference that's why I copied Linden Lab's KDU over to the viewers I'm using.
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Old 09-18-2010, 01:42 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kabalyero View Post
It's not really an issue. Who knows, I might be the only one using a computer that relies on KDU but I do notice the difference that's why I copied Linden Lab's KDU over to the viewers I'm using.
Are you running windows and if so have you used process explorer to confirm the other viewer is using kdu when present?
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