SLUniverse Forums - View Single Post - Democratic Government of the Metaverse...again

Caliandris · 07-19-2008, 08:18 AM

[4:45] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think that the opposite of a structural system of government is anarhcy
[4:46] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, I understand that. My point was simply that the *reason* for your opinion in favour of us not doing what we seek to do appears to contradict the fact that such an opinion entails that we ought to be so free.
[4:46] Caliandris Pendragon: no
[4:46] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't agree
[4:46] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, the opposite of the rule of law is anarchy.
[4:46] Caliandris Pendragon: no
[4:46] Ashcroft Burnham: It's the rule of law that is of central concern.
[4:47] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't agree with that either... I think there is a small proprtion of the population - about 5-10 of males and far fewer of females, who do not respect the rule of law whatever system is imposed on them
[4:47] Ashcroft Burnham: That is enough.
[4:48] Caliandris Pendragon: I think it would be better to ask questions about why that five or ten per cent behave in that way than developing new ways to impose punishment on them
[4:48] Ashcroft Burnham: The economic impact of the practical unenforcability of small-value contracts is greater than superfically appears: people simply don't enter into all sorts of transactions because of it. That stifles the economy.
[4:48] Ashcroft Burnham: They're not mutually exclusive :-)
[4:48] Caliandris Pendragon: people want to make a fast buck - even law abiding ones
[4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: the only reason for taking risks with land or other things is in order to try to make money
[4:49] Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed. And isn't it easier to do that in a world where one can have some confidence that contracts will be enforced in a cost-effective way than one in which that is not so?
[4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: you aren't offering that even if I wer to agree with that statement
[4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: you cannot enforce redress
[4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: you can only ban people from the places which participat
[4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: participate
[4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, no, that's not quite right.
[4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: What is proposed is a system where banishment is the punishment for failing to pay compensation, etc.
[4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: see above
[4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: Not for breaching the contract in the first place :-)
[4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: you cannot force redress
[4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: That depends what you mean.
[4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: if they could care less that your landowners ban them
[4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: then you cannot force any redress
[4:51] Ashcroft Burnham: There are many occasions in off-world legal systems in which people who have judgments against them do not pay them. No court can magically guaruntee that all judgment debts will be paid.
[4:51] Caliandris Pendragon: also: what stops anyone from starting another account to explore the places you ban them from?
[4:51] Ashcroft Burnham: What can be done is to provide a powerful disincentive to non-compliance that will cause compliance in enough cases to be useful.
[4:51] Ashcroft Burnham: That's answered in the FAQ :-)
[4:52] Caliandris Pendragon: erm I don't see it?
[4:53] Caliandris Pendragon: oh... nothing
[4:53] Ashcroft Burnham: You've found it? :-)
[4:53] Caliandris Pendragon: even less to be done with opensim
[4:53] Ashcroft Burnham: No, the same principle works there.
[4:54] Caliandris Pendragon: make another alt
[4:54] Ashcroft Burnham: See quesiton 11 in the FAQ.
[4:54] Caliandris Pendragon: the people who care about their reputation don't do these things in the firstplace
[4:54] Caliandris Pendragon: the people who don't care will jus make an alt
[4:54] Ashcroft Burnham: I think that that's far too simplistica way of looking at it.
[4:55] Ashcroft Burnham: People's reputation is relative to a large extent - reputation amongst some people, or some specific groups, can be different to that amongst others.
[4:55] Ashcroft Burnham: It's not true that nobody who ever does anything that involves a dispute has any interest whatsoever in reputation.
[4:55] Ashcroft Burnham: And the point is thoroughly addressed at q. 11 in any event.
[4:56] Caliandris Pendragon: OK... well I'd like your permission to share this argument and talk it over with people. If nothing else you have made me think about it
[4:56] Caliandris Pendragon: I shan't edit it in any way
[4:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Certainly :-)
[4:57] Caliandris Pendragon: thank you
[4:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Do show them the entire FAQ, though, please.
[4:57] Caliandris Pendragon: I was asking permission to share this conversation too, is that OK with you?
[4:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, certainly, provided that you send the FAQ to everyone with whom you share it :-)
[4:57] Caliandris Pendragon: ok, deal
[4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: :-)
[4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: It's been very interesting talking, but I have to go now...
[4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Have a lovely afternoon :-)
[4:58] Caliandris Pendragon: I wonder if the moster raving loony party has a branch in SL? OK :-)
[4:58] Caliandris Pendragon: thanks, you too
[4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Ohh, incidentally...
[4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Have a look at some of the articles on our website.
[4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: The Metaverse Republic
[4:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Some of those may help to elicidate things further :-)
[4:59] Caliandris Pendragon: thanks
[4:59] Ashcroft Burnham: (There is one on function that you might find especially useful).

07-19-2008, 08:18 AM	#55 (permalink)
Caliandris Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: London Posts: 32 My Mood:	I have NO excuses 7 [4:45] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think that the opposite of a structural system of government is anarhcy [4:46] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, I understand that. My point was simply that the reason for your opinion in favour of us not doing what we seek to do appears to contradict the fact that such an opinion entails that we ought to be so free. [4:46] Caliandris Pendragon: no [4:46] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't agree [4:46] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, the opposite of the rule of law is anarchy. [4:46] Caliandris Pendragon: no [4:46] Ashcroft Burnham: It's the rule of law that is of central concern. [4:47] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't agree with that either... I think there is a small proprtion of the population - about 5-10 of males and far fewer of females, who do not respect the rule of law whatever system is imposed on them [4:47] Ashcroft Burnham: That is enough. [4:48] Caliandris Pendragon: I think it would be better to ask questions about why that five or ten per cent behave in that way than developing new ways to impose punishment on them [4:48] Ashcroft Burnham: The economic impact of the practical unenforcability of small-value contracts is greater than superfically appears: people simply don't enter into all sorts of transactions because of it. That stifles the economy. [4:48] Ashcroft Burnham: They're not mutually exclusive :-) [4:48] Caliandris Pendragon: people want to make a fast buck - even law abiding ones [4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: the only reason for taking risks with land or other things is in order to try to make money [4:49] Ashcroft Burnham: Indeed. And isn't it easier to do that in a world where one can have some confidence that contracts will be enforced in a cost-effective way than one in which that is not so? [4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: you aren't offering that even if I wer to agree with that statement [4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: you cannot enforce redress [4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: you can only ban people from the places which participat [4:49] Caliandris Pendragon: participate [4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, no, that's not quite right. [4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: What is proposed is a system where banishment is the punishment for failing to pay compensation, etc. [4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: see above [4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: Not for breaching the contract in the first place :-) [4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: you cannot force redress [4:50] Ashcroft Burnham: That depends what you mean. [4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: if they could care less that your landowners ban them [4:50] Caliandris Pendragon: then you cannot force any redress [4:51] Ashcroft Burnham: There are many occasions in off-world legal systems in which people who have judgments against them do not pay them. No court can magically guaruntee that all judgment debts will be paid. [4:51] Caliandris Pendragon: also: what stops anyone from starting another account to explore the places you ban them from? [4:51] Ashcroft Burnham: What can be done is to provide a powerful disincentive to non-compliance that will cause compliance in enough cases to be useful. [4:51] Ashcroft Burnham: That's answered in the FAQ :-) [4:52] Caliandris Pendragon: erm I don't see it? [4:53] Caliandris Pendragon: oh... nothing [4:53] Ashcroft Burnham: You've found it? :-) [4:53] Caliandris Pendragon: even less to be done with opensim [4:53] Ashcroft Burnham: No, the same principle works there. [4:54] Caliandris Pendragon: make another alt [4:54] Ashcroft Burnham: See quesiton 11 in the FAQ. [4:54] Caliandris Pendragon: the people who care about their reputation don't do these things in the firstplace [4:54] Caliandris Pendragon: the people who don't care will jus make an alt [4:54] Ashcroft Burnham: I think that that's far too simplistica way of looking at it. [4:55] Ashcroft Burnham: People's reputation is relative to a large extent - reputation amongst some people, or some specific groups, can be different to that amongst others. [4:55] Ashcroft Burnham: It's not true that nobody who ever does anything that involves a dispute has any interest whatsoever in reputation. [4:55] Ashcroft Burnham: And the point is thoroughly addressed at q. 11 in any event. [4:56] Caliandris Pendragon: OK... well I'd like your permission to share this argument and talk it over with people. If nothing else you have made me think about it [4:56] Caliandris Pendragon: I shan't edit it in any way [4:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Certainly :-) [4:57] Caliandris Pendragon: thank you [4:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Do show them the entire FAQ, though, please. [4:57] Caliandris Pendragon: I was asking permission to share this conversation too, is that OK with you? [4:57] Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, certainly, provided that you send the FAQ to everyone with whom you share it :-) [4:57] Caliandris Pendragon: ok, deal [4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: :-) [4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: It's been very interesting talking, but I have to go now... [4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Have a lovely afternoon :-) [4:58] Caliandris Pendragon: I wonder if the moster raving loony party has a branch in SL? OK :-) [4:58] Caliandris Pendragon: thanks, you too [4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Ohh, incidentally... [4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Have a look at some of the articles on our website. [4:58] Ashcroft Burnham: The Metaverse Republic [4:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Some of those may help to elicidate things further :-) [4:59] Caliandris Pendragon: thanks [4:59] Ashcroft Burnham: (There is one on function that you might find especially useful).