SLUniverse Forums - View Single Post - Democratic Government of the Metaverse...again

Caliandris · 07-19-2008, 08:16 AM

[4:16] Caliandris Pendragon: [4:14] Ashcroft Burnham: If you agree with that liberty, then you must agree that this is one of the things that we can do with it, and that it would be wrong for you to interfere with it.
[4:16] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you believe that our liberty to do what we're planning to do should be interfered with?
[4:16] Caliandris Pendragon: how would I interefere with it?
[4:16] Caliandris Pendragon: How can it be said to be democratic if I cannot express opposition?
[4:16] Ashcroft Burnham: I've no idea. As things stand, you can't. Do you desire a world in which you can?
[4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Expressing opposition is not the same as interfering with liberty.
[4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: You're expressing opposition now, but that's not stopping us :-)
[4:17] Caliandris Pendragon: Democracy allows for one to have one's views taken into account, does it not?
[4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, in a structured way.
[4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: By voting for one's representatives in Parliament.
[4:18] Caliandris Pendragon: Well I'd like a vote one step back... do I want a parliament and accompanying judicial system in SL... yes or no
[4:18] Ashcroft Burnham: And you haven't answered my question - do you desire a world in which you can interfere with our liberty to establish the Metaverse Republic?
[4:18] Caliandris Pendragon: no
[4:19] Ashcroft Burnham: So you're happy for us to have the liberty to found the Republic?
[4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: I want a world where I can object to you setting up something that seeps over the borders of your land into SL
[4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: that's a different thing... and depends upon your point of view
[4:19] Ashcroft Burnham: You can object - you are objecting now :-)
[4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: mine is, that you wish to impose your views and system on me
[4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: and I do not wish to impose my views on anyone
[4:19] Ashcroft Burnham: But, in this world with few rules, your objection doesn't stop us from doing what we're doing. Do you think that that's a good thing or a bad thing?
[4:20] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think in the lo term it will matter
[4:20] Ashcroft Burnham: You are wishing to impose your "no imposing views" view on everyone.
[4:20] Ashcroft Burnham: You don't think that what will matter?
[4:20] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think it will matter whether I think it is a good thing or a bad thing
[4:20] Caliandris Pendragon: I think SL is infertile ground for such a scheme
[4:21] Ashcroft Burnham: I'm not asking you whether you think what you think will matter. I'm asking you what you think.
[4:21] Ashcroft Burnham: I'm asking you what you think because it goes to the very internal coherency of the basis of your objection.
[4:21] Ashcroft Burnham: As I'm sure that I've made abundantly clear already.
[4:24] Caliandris Pendragon: yes... as you would expect I do of course defend people's freedom to do what they want to do in SL... and I see that as a good andpositive thing, untill they start dictating what I may do in SL as laid down by their rules... in normal cases I can choose not to have anything to do with a group which does things I disagree with, but if successful your group will seek to curtail my activities according to their own system, impose upon me whether I join with you or not. That I would say is a bad thing. So the answer to your question is both. I see it as both good and bad
[4:24] Ashcroft Burnham: So you accept that your own view is contradictory?
[4:24] Caliandris Pendragon: No I don't
[4:24] Ashcroft Burnham: How can "I see it as both good and bad" not be accepting that?
[4:24] Caliandris Pendragon: I accept that you have tunnel vision about it
[4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: Peronsal insults do not advance understanding.
[4:25] Caliandris Pendragon: I have explained why it might be both goo and bad
[4:25] Caliandris Pendragon: there is no contradiction implicit in what I said
[4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: What I am asking you is whether you believe that it is right that we should have the liberty to do it.
[4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you?
[4:25] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't accept that you do have the liberty to do it, actualy
[4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: How?
[4:26] Ashcroft Burnham: What is stopping us?
[4:26] Caliandris Pendragon: I think it would be quite easy for Linden Lab to decide to take exception to it if it caused a lot of disruption to the grid and a lot of antagonism
[4:26] Caliandris Pendragon: this isn't the real world, they can unplug you
[4:26] Ashcroft Burnham: If it is (1) techincally possible; and (2) not illegal, in what sense don't we ahve the liberty?
[4:26] Caliandris Pendragon: you sign the TOS
[4:27] Caliandris Pendragon: they could interpret a lot of the things that you propose in a variety of ays
[4:27] Ashcroft Burnham: The ToS does not prohibit the Metaverse Republic.
[4:27] Caliandris Pendragon: ways
[4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: That vague and generic argument does not support the specific proposition that we are not at liberty to establish the Metaverse Republic; in any event, you miss the long-term point: eventually, virtual worlds will run on an OpenSim model. There won't be central control by Linden Lab (or similar) as there is now.
[4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Whatever Linden Lab decide about us won't apply then.
[4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: (In any event, Robin Linden is a member of our group; she's been most supportive)
[4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: It's overwhelmingly unlikely that Linden Lab will stop us from doing what we're doing - they haven't stopped BanLink, after all.
[4:29] Caliandris Pendragon: Perhaps she's a spy... they would tend to be supportive in order to maintain cover
[4:29] Ashcroft Burnham: You are now progressing into the land of absurdity.
[4:29] Caliandris Pendragon: lol
[4:29] Caliandris Pendragon: I am!
[4:29] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you still maintain that we don't have the liberty to found the Metaverse Republic?

07-19-2008, 08:16 AM	#53 (permalink)
Caliandris Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: London Posts: 32 My Mood:	outrageously long convo 5 don't ban me lol [4:16] Caliandris Pendragon: [4:14] Ashcroft Burnham: If you agree with that liberty, then you must agree that this is one of the things that we can do with it, and that it would be wrong for you to interfere with it. [4:16] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you believe that our liberty to do what we're planning to do should be interfered with? [4:16] Caliandris Pendragon: how would I interefere with it? [4:16] Caliandris Pendragon: How can it be said to be democratic if I cannot express opposition? [4:16] Ashcroft Burnham: I've no idea. As things stand, you can't. Do you desire a world in which you can? [4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Expressing opposition is not the same as interfering with liberty. [4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: You're expressing opposition now, but that's not stopping us :-) [4:17] Caliandris Pendragon: Democracy allows for one to have one's views taken into account, does it not? [4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: Yes, in a structured way. [4:17] Ashcroft Burnham: By voting for one's representatives in Parliament. [4:18] Caliandris Pendragon: Well I'd like a vote one step back... do I want a parliament and accompanying judicial system in SL... yes or no [4:18] Ashcroft Burnham: And you haven't answered my question - do you desire a world in which you can interfere with our liberty to establish the Metaverse Republic? [4:18] Caliandris Pendragon: no [4:19] Ashcroft Burnham: So you're happy for us to have the liberty to found the Republic? [4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: I want a world where I can object to you setting up something that seeps over the borders of your land into SL [4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: that's a different thing... and depends upon your point of view [4:19] Ashcroft Burnham: You can object - you are objecting now :-) [4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: mine is, that you wish to impose your views and system on me [4:19] Caliandris Pendragon: and I do not wish to impose my views on anyone [4:19] Ashcroft Burnham: But, in this world with few rules, your objection doesn't stop us from doing what we're doing. Do you think that that's a good thing or a bad thing? [4:20] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think in the lo term it will matter [4:20] Ashcroft Burnham: You are wishing to impose your "no imposing views" view on everyone. [4:20] Ashcroft Burnham: You don't think that what will matter? [4:20] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think it will matter whether I think it is a good thing or a bad thing [4:20] Caliandris Pendragon: I think SL is infertile ground for such a scheme [4:21] Ashcroft Burnham: I'm not asking you whether you think what you think will matter. I'm asking you what you think. [4:21] Ashcroft Burnham: I'm asking you what you think because it goes to the very internal coherency of the basis of your objection. [4:21] Ashcroft Burnham: As I'm sure that I've made abundantly clear already. [4:24] Caliandris Pendragon: yes... as you would expect I do of course defend people's freedom to do what they want to do in SL... and I see that as a good andpositive thing, untill they start dictating what I may do in SL as laid down by their rules... in normal cases I can choose not to have anything to do with a group which does things I disagree with, but if successful your group will seek to curtail my activities according to their own system, impose upon me whether I join with you or not. That I would say is a bad thing. So the answer to your question is both. I see it as both good and bad [4:24] Ashcroft Burnham: So you accept that your own view is contradictory? [4:24] Caliandris Pendragon: No I don't [4:24] Ashcroft Burnham: How can "I see it as both good and bad" not be accepting that? [4:24] Caliandris Pendragon: I accept that you have tunnel vision about it [4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: Peronsal insults do not advance understanding. [4:25] Caliandris Pendragon: I have explained why it might be both goo and bad [4:25] Caliandris Pendragon: there is no contradiction implicit in what I said [4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: What I am asking you is whether you believe that it is right that we should have the liberty to do it. [4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you? [4:25] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't accept that you do have the liberty to do it, actualy [4:25] Ashcroft Burnham: How? [4:26] Ashcroft Burnham: What is stopping us? [4:26] Caliandris Pendragon: I think it would be quite easy for Linden Lab to decide to take exception to it if it caused a lot of disruption to the grid and a lot of antagonism [4:26] Caliandris Pendragon: this isn't the real world, they can unplug you [4:26] Ashcroft Burnham: If it is (1) techincally possible; and (2) not illegal, in what sense don't we ahve the liberty? [4:26] Caliandris Pendragon: you sign the TOS [4:27] Caliandris Pendragon: they could interpret a lot of the things that you propose in a variety of ays [4:27] Ashcroft Burnham: The ToS does not prohibit the Metaverse Republic. [4:27] Caliandris Pendragon: ways [4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: That vague and generic argument does not support the specific proposition that we are not at liberty to establish the Metaverse Republic; in any event, you miss the long-term point: eventually, virtual worlds will run on an OpenSim model. There won't be central control by Linden Lab (or similar) as there is now. [4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: Whatever Linden Lab decide about us won't apply then. [4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: (In any event, Robin Linden is a member of our group; she's been most supportive) [4:28] Ashcroft Burnham: It's overwhelmingly unlikely that Linden Lab will stop us from doing what we're doing - they haven't stopped BanLink, after all. [4:29] Caliandris Pendragon: Perhaps she's a spy... they would tend to be supportive in order to maintain cover [4:29] Ashcroft Burnham: You are now progressing into the land of absurdity. [4:29] Caliandris Pendragon: lol [4:29] Caliandris Pendragon: I am! [4:29] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you still maintain that we don't have the liberty to found the Metaverse Republic?