[4:00] Ashcroft Burnham: That's not an answer to my quesiton :-)
[4:00] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you or don't you think that it's a valuable thing to attempt to achieve.
[4:00] Ashcroft Burnham: ?>
[4:00] Caliandris Pendragon: do I think there is any valuein it... yes, but not worth the cost
[4:00] Caliandris Pendragon: it isn't worth the cost in REAL life, or in the virtual world EITHER
[4:00] Ashcroft Burnham: Why do you assess the cost as greater than the value? What's the basis for the quantification?
[4:00] Ashcroft Burnham: Why do you assume that the cost in a virtual world would be the same?
[4:01] Ashcroft Burnham: (I was referring to cost in financial terms)
[4:01] Caliandris Pendragon: It's a different cost - my freedom to be without courts and government in the virtual world
[4:01] Caliandris Pendragon: my freedom not to have to express my vote in order to have a say in something that is being imposed on me
[4:01] Ashcroft Burnham: That's not a basis for the quantification - you haven't explained why the quantum of that value outweighs the va;ue of preventing the small-scale fraud of the sort of which I wrote above.
[4:02] Caliandris Pendragon: I do't have to explain, it's my opinion, that's all
[4:02] Ashcroft Burnham: So your opinion has no basis in reason?
[4:02] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't have to explain why I value my freedom higher han other people's ability to go play courts somewhere
[4:02] Ashcroft Burnham: No, that wasn't the question.
[4:02] Caliandris Pendragon: tha's a very insulting thing to say
[4:03] Ashcroft Burnham: Is it not equally insulting to suggest that our efforts to create a serious judicial system is somebody's "ability to go play courts somewhere"?
[4:03] Ashcroft Burnham: And if you won't state the basis in reason for your conclusions, what else can one deduce?
[4:04] Caliandris Pendragon: I consider the risks taken in Virtual worlds to be proportionate
[4:04] Ashcroft Burnham: Why?
[4:04] Ashcroft Burnham: What's the basis for the quantification?
[4:04] Caliandris Pendragon: and they are risks which people understand they are taking
[4:05] Ashcroft Burnham: That people understand that they are taking risks does not mean that it is not a better world in which they do not have to take those risks.
[4:05] Caliandris Pendragon: that being the case, I think that the current systems for redress work well enough not to be replaced by a hulking great system of government and judiciary imposed by a minority of people who think it is a good iea
[4:05] Caliandris Pendragon: better world? That's what you are offering?
[4:05] Ashcroft Burnham: Nor does it not mean that they are not undertaken grudgingly.
[4:05] Caliandris Pendragon: I come into the virtual world to get away from those sorts of realities... party politics, squabbling and arguing
[4:05] Ashcroft Burnham: Anything that seeks to make anything better is offering that. There'd be no point in undertaking what we are doing unless it made things better.
[4:05] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't want you or anyone else to drag them in after me
[4:06] Caliandris Pendragon: the road to hell is paved with good intention
[4:06] Ashcroft Burnham: That can equally be said about your "good intentions" to preserve anarchy, can it not?
[4:06] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't see anarchy here
[4:06] Caliandris Pendragon: so I can't help you with that
[4:07] Ashcroft Burnham: I shall leave you with this parting thought - what we are doing is something that the inherent freedom in the virtual world enables us to do. That is the freedom that you seek to defend. If you disagree with this exercise of that freedom, then you are accepting that that very freedom is of less value than you claim it to be. If you uphold that freedom, then you equally uphold our freedom to do what we seek to do.
[4:08] Caliandris Pendragon: people are stupid sometimes, trust that they are being told the truth, or that banks really can give 40% interest, you can't protect people from their own stupidity, which is what you are seeking to do it seems
[4:08] Caliandris Pendragon: no you are seeking to impose restrictions on me
[4:08] Caliandris Pendragon: I do not seek to restrict your freedom to operate your own way in your own land
[4:08] Caliandris Pendragon: but you do seek to restrict me
[4:08] Ashcroft Burnham: By exercising the very freedom that you seek to defend :-)
[4:09] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you not see that the freedom that you are seeking to defend includes the very freedom to "impose restrictions on others", as you put it?
[4:09] Caliandris Pendragon: nope
[4:09] Caliandris Pendragon: I do not
[4:09] Ashcroft Burnham: Explain.
[4:09] Ashcroft Burnham: How are we not free to do what we seek to do?
[4:09] Ashcroft Burnham: That you dislike it does not abrogate that freedom, does it?
[4:10] Caliandris Pendragon: YOu are asking for the right to impose restrictions on the whole of
SL or the whole of the metaverse
[4:10] Caliandris Pendragon: whether or not I consent
[4:10] Ashcroft Burnham: We're not asking for a right that we don't already have. We already have the liberty to do that. That liberty comes from the very lack of rules of which you are so fond.
[4:11] Caliandris Pendragon: You have the right to do what you like on your land... what you are asking for is some sort of mandate to impose that on everyone
[4:12] Caliandris Pendragon: I haven't worked out how you propose to get that mandate without imposing your elections on me
[4:12] Ashcroft Burnham: We're not *asking for* anything. We already have what we need.
[4:12] Caliandris Pendragon: I see
[4:12] Ashcroft Burnham: All that is required is the exercise of our liberties by ourselves, and for enough landowners to exercise their liberties and join us.
[4:13] Caliandris Pendragon: so if only 20% of the possible electorate vote in favor of your parliament or for it, it will make no difference?
[4:13] Ashcroft Burnham: People will be voting about individual members of Parliament - there is not an election about Parliament itself, specifically.
[4:13] Caliandris Pendragon: no, because if there were, it would be dead in the water
[4:14] Ashcroft Burnham: But don't you see that you are objecting to the exericse of the very liberties that, by objecting, you are claiming that you are defending?
[4:14] Ashcroft Burnham: The very liberties of which you write - the liberty to do anything that the code makes possible - is what allows us to do what we're doing.
[4:14] Ashcroft Burnham: If you agree with that liberty, then you must agree that this is one of the things that we can do with it, and that it would be wrong for you to interfere with it.
[4:15] Ashcroft Burnham: If you accept that valid restrictions are imposed on that liberty by anything other than the general law (and what we are doing is certainly not illegal), then you accept a foundational premise of the Republic itself.
[4:15] Caliandris Pendragon: Interfere with it... how pray would one do that?
[4:15] Ashcroft Burnham: Interfere with what