SLUniverse Forums - View Single Post - Democratic Government of the Metaverse...again

Caliandris · 07-19-2008, 08:13 AM

(Interjection - just realised I should have posted this to my blog and then directed people to it. I'm sorry... )

[3:45] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you not think it close to anarchy when people are free to default on their solemn promises without recourse?
[3:46] Ashcroft Burnham: When people are, in practical terms, free to harass others without recourse?
[3:46] Caliandris Pendragon: That isn't true
[3:46] Caliandris Pendragon: and even if it were, I might think it was worth the risk that it entails inorder to be free of the sort of idiocy that goes on i the real world in relation to government
[3:46] Ashcroft Burnham: The system of abuse reports does not deal with complicated situations (certainly not promises), and in most cases does not even work for harassment.
[3:47] Caliandris Pendragon: Promises aren't dealt wit in the real world either
[3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that the same applies to the physical world? If not, what's the distinction?
[3:47] Caliandris Pendragon: Try going to a court and telling them someone promised you this or that
[3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: Of course they are - there is the law of contract.
[3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: That's why I said "solemn promise" - I was talking about transactional contracts, arrangements between providers and consumers of services and gods.
[3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: *goods
[3:48] Caliandris Pendragon: there are degrees and degrees... if a substantive promise is made in the virtual world it can be made as easily in the real world where it would be ubject to the legal tests current in the real word
[3:48] Ashcroft Burnham: Including land - it is a very common and really quite serious problem that landlords enter into agreements with tenants, and then breach those agreements, re-let the land, ban the tenants, and the tenants have no effective recourse.
[3:48] Ashcroft Burnham: The problem with that is, as I think is discussed in the FAQ (or perhaps an article on the webiste) is of cost - transaction values in SL are *far* smaller in comparison to their in-world worth than off-world.
[3:49] Caliandris Pendragon: ok... you ask how this could impinge on SL? Bringing real life legal issues into SL would kill a lot of the things people do as a matter of course at themoment
[3:49] Caliandris Pendragon: employing someone for 1000 lindens a week for example, would be absolutely illega in the real world
[3:49] Ashcroft Burnham: The cost of bringing an action to enforce an in-world contract is vastly greater than it could ever possibly be worth in all but the most gigantic of transactions.
[3:49] Ashcroft Burnham: The "ordinary people", as you put it, have no recourse in practical terms.
[3:49] Caliandris Pendragon: they have choices all the time and have to make those choices based upon the best information
[3:50] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, what do you mean by "real life legal issues" here? The idea is not that we impose a pre-existing legal system, but that we develop a novel legal system especially for virtual worlds.
[3:50] Ashcroft Burnham: From scratch.
[3:50] Caliandris Pendragon: there are a lot of people who learned valuable lessons from the Ginko disaster and who now know that if something seems too good to be true it probably is.
[3:50] Ashcroft Burnham: The point of the Metaverse Republic is to resist interference from outside agencies, not to encourage it.
[3:51] Ashcroft Burnham: I daresay - but the transactions to which I am referring are very often not "too good to be true" - they are just ordinary, market rate land rentals.
[3:51] Caliandris Pendragon: Personally, the freedom I have no to consider rules made up by a bunch of people I don't know is worth the risks which dealing with others in the virtual worlds entails
[3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: I dislike the whole idea of ringing the virtual world around with made up rules
[3:52] Ashcroft Burnham: Many, many people disagree, especially those who've been involved with such transactions.
[3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: and I dislike it particularly if it is done by self appointed people
[3:52] Ashcroft Burnham: The legislature will not be self-appointed.
[3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: I ee no difference between this and those people who run around with police badges
[3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: of course it will
[3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: self selecting electorate
[3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: self selecting judiciary
[3:53] Ashcroft Burnham: Do the people who run aroudn with police badges have a judicial system?
[3:53] Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody would be entitled to become a subscriber and vote in elections.
[3:53] Caliandris Pendragon: self selecting their court system and rules
[3:53] Ashcroft Burnham: It is simply false to state that a democratically elected legislature is "self-selecting".
[3:53] Caliandris Pendragon: I can be a member of all sorts of groups I wouldn't chooe to join
[3:53] Caliandris Pendragon: the fact that I can doesn't give them a mandate to say that I have made a choice by not joining
[3:54] Ashcroft Burnham: And you didn't answer my question above - do you think that the value of not having the rule of law in virtual worlds also extends to the physical world? If not, what, precisely, is the distinction?
[3:54] Caliandris Pendragon: it cannot be democratically elected... how can it?
[3:54] Ashcroft Burnham: Of course you've made a choice by not joining.
[3:54] Ashcroft Burnham: What do you mean "how can it?" We'll run elections using the STV voting system.
[3:54] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't want a vote I don't want a parliament
[3:54] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think 98% of the population in the metaverse do either
[3:55] Ashcroft Burnham: No, that's not the issue - you stated that the legislature would be "self selected", which is false.
[3:55] Ashcroft Burnham: 98% is a figure plucked from the air.
[3:55] Caliandris Pendragon: of course it isn't
[3:55] Caliandris Pendragon: ok, lets pretend... pretend 20% vote for the parliament... is that a mandate to have one?
[3:55] Caliandris Pendragon: 80% don't vote?
[3:55] Ashcroft Burnham: And you *still* haven't answered my question about whether you see a distinction betwee the rule of law in virtual worlds and the physical world - do you see such a distinction? If so, precisely what is it?
[3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: Do I see a distinction... well of course. If I kill someone in RL they're dead. If I kill you in SL you go home. There is not the same need for law in a virtual world as in a real one. For serious issues of say theft then the real life courts should deal with it and no one else. For less serious issues of say abuse with a melon firing gun, then the abuse reporting system of the platform owner is necessary
[3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: I do not see the need for any other systems
[3:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that the only value of law is to protect people from being physically harmed?
[3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: no... se above
[3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: serious issues = real life law
[3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: less serious = abuse reporting
[3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that there is no value in preventing fraud on such a small financial scale that it is never worth the extremely large amount of money involved in bringing an action?
[3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that there is no value in enforcing contracts?
[3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that there is no value in preventing the vast amount of harassment that falls through the abuse report net?
[3:59] Caliandris Pendragon: I think it is ahopeless aim... preventing small scale fraud... I don't think your court system will offer or deliver on that
[3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that the system of abuse reports will survive in any event when everyone's using OpenSim?

07-19-2008, 08:13 AM	#51 (permalink)
Caliandris Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: London Posts: 32 My Mood:	Long conveo with Ashcroft 3 (Interjection - just realised I should have posted this to my blog and then directed people to it. I'm sorry... ) [3:45] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you not think it close to anarchy when people are free to default on their solemn promises without recourse? [3:46] Ashcroft Burnham: When people are, in practical terms, free to harass others without recourse? [3:46] Caliandris Pendragon: That isn't true [3:46] Caliandris Pendragon: and even if it were, I might think it was worth the risk that it entails inorder to be free of the sort of idiocy that goes on i the real world in relation to government [3:46] Ashcroft Burnham: The system of abuse reports does not deal with complicated situations (certainly not promises), and in most cases does not even work for harassment. [3:47] Caliandris Pendragon: Promises aren't dealt wit in the real world either [3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that the same applies to the physical world? If not, what's the distinction? [3:47] Caliandris Pendragon: Try going to a court and telling them someone promised you this or that [3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: Of course they are - there is the law of contract. [3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: That's why I said "solemn promise" - I was talking about transactional contracts, arrangements between providers and consumers of services and gods. [3:47] Ashcroft Burnham: goods [3:48] Caliandris Pendragon: there are degrees and degrees... if a substantive promise is made in the virtual world it can be made as easily in the real world where it would be ubject to the legal tests current in the real word [3:48] Ashcroft Burnham: Including land - it is a very common and really quite serious problem that landlords enter into agreements with tenants, and then breach those agreements, re-let the land, ban the tenants, and the tenants have no effective recourse. [3:48] Ashcroft Burnham: The problem with that is, as I think is discussed in the FAQ (or perhaps an article on the webiste) is of cost - transaction values in SL are far* smaller in comparison to their in-world worth than off-world. [3:49] Caliandris Pendragon: ok... you ask how this could impinge on SL? Bringing real life legal issues into SL would kill a lot of the things people do as a matter of course at themoment [3:49] Caliandris Pendragon: employing someone for 1000 lindens a week for example, would be absolutely illega in the real world [3:49] Ashcroft Burnham: The cost of bringing an action to enforce an in-world contract is vastly greater than it could ever possibly be worth in all but the most gigantic of transactions. [3:49] Ashcroft Burnham: The "ordinary people", as you put it, have no recourse in practical terms. [3:49] Caliandris Pendragon: they have choices all the time and have to make those choices based upon the best information [3:50] Ashcroft Burnham: Ahh, what do you mean by "real life legal issues" here? The idea is not that we impose a pre-existing legal system, but that we develop a novel legal system especially for virtual worlds. [3:50] Ashcroft Burnham: From scratch. [3:50] Caliandris Pendragon: there are a lot of people who learned valuable lessons from the Ginko disaster and who now know that if something seems too good to be true it probably is. [3:50] Ashcroft Burnham: The point of the Metaverse Republic is to resist interference from outside agencies, not to encourage it. [3:51] Ashcroft Burnham: I daresay - but the transactions to which I am referring are very often not "too good to be true" - they are just ordinary, market rate land rentals. [3:51] Caliandris Pendragon: Personally, the freedom I have no to consider rules made up by a bunch of people I don't know is worth the risks which dealing with others in the virtual worlds entails [3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: I dislike the whole idea of ringing the virtual world around with made up rules [3:52] Ashcroft Burnham: Many, many people disagree, especially those who've been involved with such transactions. [3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: and I dislike it particularly if it is done by self appointed people [3:52] Ashcroft Burnham: The legislature will not be self-appointed. [3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: I ee no difference between this and those people who run around with police badges [3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: of course it will [3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: self selecting electorate [3:52] Caliandris Pendragon: self selecting judiciary [3:53] Ashcroft Burnham: Do the people who run aroudn with police badges have a judicial system? [3:53] Ashcroft Burnham: Anybody would be entitled to become a subscriber and vote in elections. [3:53] Caliandris Pendragon: self selecting their court system and rules [3:53] Ashcroft Burnham: It is simply false to state that a democratically elected legislature is "self-selecting". [3:53] Caliandris Pendragon: I can be a member of all sorts of groups I wouldn't chooe to join [3:53] Caliandris Pendragon: the fact that I can doesn't give them a mandate to say that I have made a choice by not joining [3:54] Ashcroft Burnham: And you didn't answer my question above - do you think that the value of not having the rule of law in virtual worlds also extends to the physical world? If not, what, precisely, is the distinction? [3:54] Caliandris Pendragon: it cannot be democratically elected... how can it? [3:54] Ashcroft Burnham: Of course you've made a choice by not joining. [3:54] Ashcroft Burnham: What do you mean "how can it?" We'll run elections using the STV voting system. [3:54] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't want a vote I don't want a parliament [3:54] Caliandris Pendragon: I don't think 98% of the population in the metaverse do either [3:55] Ashcroft Burnham: No, that's not the issue - you stated that the legislature would be "self selected", which is false. [3:55] Ashcroft Burnham: 98% is a figure plucked from the air. [3:55] Caliandris Pendragon: of course it isn't [3:55] Caliandris Pendragon: ok, lets pretend... pretend 20% vote for the parliament... is that a mandate to have one? [3:55] Caliandris Pendragon: 80% don't vote? [3:55] Ashcroft Burnham: And you still haven't answered my question about whether you see a distinction betwee the rule of law in virtual worlds and the physical world - do you see such a distinction? If so, precisely what is it? [3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: Do I see a distinction... well of course. If I kill someone in RL they're dead. If I kill you in SL you go home. There is not the same need for law in a virtual world as in a real one. For serious issues of say theft then the real life courts should deal with it and no one else. For less serious issues of say abuse with a melon firing gun, then the abuse reporting system of the platform owner is necessary [3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: I do not see the need for any other systems [3:58] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that the only value of law is to protect people from being physically harmed? [3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: no... se above [3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: serious issues = real life law [3:58] Caliandris Pendragon: less serious = abuse reporting [3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that there is no value in preventing fraud on such a small financial scale that it is never worth the extremely large amount of money involved in bringing an action? [3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that there is no value in enforcing contracts? [3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that there is no value in preventing the vast amount of harassment that falls through the abuse report net? [3:59] Caliandris Pendragon: I think it is ahopeless aim... preventing small scale fraud... I don't think your court system will offer or deliver on that [3:59] Ashcroft Burnham: Do you think that the system of abuse reports will survive in any event when everyone's using OpenSim?