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Originally Posted by Fmeh  I really and TRULY want to believe in what you're saying, but I guess I'm just too cynical. I am unable to see the light at the end of the tunnel that you are able to see. |
Thank you. I have a tactical point of view, in that I want to be supportive of progressive Muslims. So I get the optimism by borrowing it from them.
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Originally Posted by Midi Reifsnider I don't think we need to be trying to make these societies more secular, or more like us, I think we need to work towards acceptance of the differences and tolerance of each others life choices. Islamic societies need to accept that Western societies value free speech as highly as they value placing their religion above criticism, and we need to stop thinking "if only they held the same values as we do". |
I can't agree with this. You seem to be assuming the "real" Islam is the extremist type. I'm not a moral relativist, and I don't think basic human rights are negotiable in any culture. But this is still no problem, since moderate and progressive Muslims also support those same basic human rights. The tendency to secularism, when countries are evolving, comes from within as much as from without, and America doesn't have to force anything on anyone, just be supportive.
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Originally Posted by Fmeh Yes, to beat women and hang gay people and kill "infidels", yep, we should be accepting of those things.....  Just like we should be "accepting" of people like Phelps.
How can that happen? They would have to have some of the same values as we do in order to accept that.
And let me re-iterate, I'm talking about extremists in Sharia Law countries, not simply Islamic countries in which there are quite a few that have embraced the idea of democracy. |
I agree with you about the extremists, but I want to be sure America supports pro-democracy people instead of undermining them with drastic punitive measures against their countries. Embargoes are like shooting into a crowd with a shotgun when you only wanted to stop one person.